Feminist reduced to tears by T-shirt

Good God, your know someone is on the fringe when you cannot tell the difference between someone pretending to be a crazy feminist, and a skepchick-type feminist expressing their opinion.  That’s right, feminism in the secular movement has reached poe-tastic proportions!

So lets see if you can tell me which one of the following is someone pretending to be crazy, and which is a serious feminist (being supported by who else but ‘Freethoughtbloggers’ and skepchick).

Is it a)

There has been a lot of sexually harassing by text (textual harassment) at TAM, and therefore the skeptichicks are planning to implement a policy banning such harassment at their conferences.  To ensure that women feel safe at conferences this policy will strictly prohibit people sending unwanted text messages, specifically including the following:

( . ) ( . )


or is it b),

…that wearing a T-shirt at TAM saying that says ‘I’m a skeptic, not a skepchick, not a woman skeptic, just a skeptic’ constituted such powerful and dehumanizing harassment, that it reduced a grown feminist to tears, forcing her to spend the rest of the conference with her mother.  Then eventually when she simply couldn’t take the devastating harassment of the T-shirt anymore, she had to change her flight and leave early.

Well if you answered a), sorry to say you are wrong.  Textual harassment was from a parody site of ‘freethoughblogs’.  In reality it was one of those fearless feminist types, Amy Roth, who ended up crying because she didn’t like someones T-shirt at a conference (TAM).  What’s more is the absolute vanilla level of meek criticism that was required to turn this steely eyed feminist into blubbing girl.  I kid you not, it was no more than this T-shirt.  Seriously, this is not being mean, this is just like one of those “WTF is she going on about? there is no way she can possibly be that fragile and thin skinned”, type things.

Here’s the actual text of her describing the event, but if you can’t be bothered to read it, here is the video form (see 46s onwards):

This takes being thin skinned to a whole new level.  I mean really this level of offendability makes the ‘war on christmas’ people look positively sane, rational and thickskinned!  Really, did you ever see any of them in tears because someone wore a T-shirt slightly disparaging to xmas?  If they had would they not be laughed off the planet?  Then why should a feminist get any more slack than the craziest of the fundamentalists simply because shes calls herself a skeptic of sorts? And no surprises this horrible ‘harassment’ suffered by Amy was promoted by freethoughtblogs.

However deep at the bottom of this I can’t but help feel the skepchick-types REALLY needed something to be offended about, and they defiantly need to be the victims of something!  There clearly wasn’t any sexual harassment at TAM, without even a single instance of someone being asked for coffee in an elevator.  Then of course TAM had a sexual harassment policy in place.  Really what is left for the skepchick-types to get hysterical about?  Well, by a T-shirt saying they are “not a skepchick” of course- oh the horror… the horror.

Remember, if you oppose the T-shirt harassment policy at future conferences then you must be a bigoted, rape enabling, misogynistic radical woman hating MRA and you will get called an asshole before getting blocked for being a ‘troll’! It’s part of the inclusive forward thinking policy of this blog to promote equality. -jk or skepchick-style-feminism logic?

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264 Responses to “Feminist reduced to tears by T-shirt”

  1. Anonymous Says:

    Every day I keep hearing more and more absurd nonsense coming from the radical feminist-skeptic “movement”, which seems to be much more about promoting a fringe, hate-mongering and hyperoffended agenda than anything resembling skepticism.

  2. Magnus the Noble Says:


  3. Magnus the Good Says:

    We love ya Tf00t! Don’t let these warmongering hate-spewing cunts get to you!

  4. str8d0pe Says:

    That’s just ridiculous

  5. Virtual Satyr Says:

    This incident reminds me of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucHIPag-m40

    Here, we have a someone who saw a legal bumper sticker on a vehicle belonging to someone else. The person felt so offended he decided to sue the person issuing out said bumper sticker.

    The bumper sticker said “Nation Atheist Day: April 1st” The person offended was an atheist.

    Here was a sticker poking fun at a group. One person out of this group became extremely offended.

    Matt Dillahunty, another member of this group poked fun at this atheist, named Patrick, for being offended by such a silly thing.

    And rightfully so.

    So, now a person has become offended by a t-shirt. A t-shirt worn by one person, featuring statements about the wearer herself. Ok, perhaps the shirt was having a bit of a poke at the self proclaimed “skepchicks.”

    One person got offended by it. Instead of pointing out the ridiculousness of being offended by a shirt, they circle around her, wave their flags, and start shouting “offensive.”

    I have not seen Dillahunty’s response to Shirtgate, but if he sides with PZ and Ophelia Benson and the lot, then it is straight up hypocrisy. Which would be very sad.

    • JackD1911 Says:

      Dillahunty, despite his usual, rational self, seemed to have sided with the femtheists since elevator gate, and again when they started calling for TAM to implement some totally useless, redundant policy and for DJ Grothe to be removed. (That was precisely around the time that I started following him on Twitter, and when I quickly abandoned ship.)

      So….if his automatic irrationality about these subjects up to this point are any indication, hypocrisy is exactly where I’m expecting him to be headed… :/

      • masakari2012 Says:

        While I disagree with their position on this issue, I don’t remember anyone from TAE calling for the removal of D.J. Grothe. In fact, I remember Martin Wagner writing a blog titled… “No, DJ Grothe should not resign from JREF”… unless that’s old news.

      • Anonymous Says:


      • The Devil's Towelboy Says:

        Anonymous Says: July 19, 2012 at 3:05 pm

        You baboons and your “citation needed”. How about one of you clowns actually cite the “cunt kick” comment original source for once? You repeat it ad nauseam. Of course you won’t though – it would undo your narrative.

      • JackD1911 Says:

        @masakari2012 Is that what I said? I said Matt Dillahunty (not even “The Atheist Experience”) TOOK THEIR SIDE. Now learn to read properly and reply to what I’m actually saying, if you’re at all going to bother.

  6. Nemesis Says:

    had an admittedly abrasive comment on Ophelia\’s blog for about 5 seconds. It was basically telling them to grow up and stop being such crybabies about every little – in this case most likely imagined – insult to their oversensitive feelings. This kind of behaviour in my opinion only hinders the cause of gender equality.

    I might have worn Harriet\’s t-shirt myself, since I hate the word \’chick\’ when used of women, as it\’s deeply demeaning. Of course, the skepchick fangirls would see my point of view as misogynist, but they\’d be wrong. I\’m not that self-hating.

    Yeah, hate on me all you want. It certainly won\’t change my opinion about egocentric twats, who demand to be considered above anyone else, in any case.

  7. AnonToday Says:

    Well, this male brain developed with a pituitary tumor that elevated the prolactin levels in my body well beyond any acceptable range. It took a long time for the medical community to figure out what was causing system wide problems. My prolactin levels were so high, that I exhibited all the symptoms of a male with extremely deficient testosterone levels because the huge abundance of prolactin drastically decreased my testosterone levels below the lowest acceptable values for any man, much more a man in his 20’s.

    I’m utterly outraged that any statement like “the human brain is a female brain that has been damaged at various stages in his life” gets chuckles at an event that is supposed to be about skepticism through critical thinking. Even in a joking manner, it’s not even humorous.

    I guess in my situation, when the prolactin levels were at their highest, and I just happened to stumble upon skepticism and critical thinking as I was entering my second year of graduate school for chemistry, my ability to take what I learned, apply it, be extremely detached emotionally from what I’m analyzing even when looking at my own beliefs I had based my life on, and completely reshape my entire world view based on the realization that some of my beliefs were illogical was all the “female” related activity in my brain that was caused by being completely asexual due to such ridiculously high prolactin levels.

    That video is despicable, and I’m so glad I had not yet affiliated myself with a group of people who not only tolerate, but promote such condescending and illogical viewpoints about gender/sex differences. Absolutely unacceptable. I will be saving my time and resources for better events than this. I can’t imagine being offended by any kind of sexual proposition or sexual joke or anything along those lines to the extent that this video is offensive.

  8. Mike De Fleuriot Says:

    I want to comment, but what can one say that we are not already thinking. I wonder how much envy goes though their minds when they stand in the same room with Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

    Talk about living in a privileged world, safe from actual harm and wishing to be a real freedom fighter like those on the news reels.

  9. Justicar Says:

    Don’t forget the front of the t-shirt had a smiley face on it, too! Can you believe that? An honest to goodness real live smiley face! Right there – in public!

    Has Harriet no decency? When will the torture finally be stopped?

  10. John Hancock Says:

    And down the slippery slope we go.

    First it was asking to have coffee (admittidly at a strange time) now it’s an extremely mild t-shirt that brought an adult to tears.

    We should place bets on what it will be next.

    “I’m offended by her hair color! She has to be kicked out!”

    “His chair has more padding than mine. That’s sexual discrimination.”

    “I was smiled at. How dare someone smile at me!”

    Soon they will have a religious person show up and shut the whole thing down because they feel offended by the idea of skepticism.

  11. Skeeve Says:

    Surly Amy has since stated, “This was not the only incident that happened to me at TAM where people were targeting me with personalized items meant to mock or diminish my presence. I only bring up the Harriet Hall instance because she is already in the spotlight as a leader in our community and because she was someone I looked up to. The other people who targeted me don’t deserve our attention at this point. So know that just a ‘silly tshirt’ did not reduce me to tears. Sadly, there was a lot more going on.”

    What does that even mean?

    • Virtual Satyr Says:

      Somebody must have had a Richard Dawkins t-shirt on.

    • Anonymous Says:

      There was a group of people harassing Amy via twitter for even going to TAM. People from both sides of this debate/issue were saying so pretty nasty things to her. I was at TAM, saw Harriet’s shirt and don’t understand why that would be the final straw.

      • John Says:

        On it being the final straw – I think it never occurred to these folks that they didn’t automatically speak for all women, everywhere, at all times. To find an influential woman who would publicly declare that she didn’t want to be associated with this group of folks – I think that’s what drove her over the line.

        Either way, she needs to grow up, as do the rest of these folks. They shouldn’t be able to dictate how everyone else should feel or think simply because they’re the loudest and most abusive against their “enemies” – enemies in this case meaning allies who disagree with them on one point and now can be called all manner of atrocious things.

    • Mike Friend Says:

      Somehow Amy does not give equal impact to all of the times that she was complimented by name for providing so many grants for women to attend TAM. That _was_ a great gesture but the JREF forum members also provided grants for men and women and that was barely mentioned.
      My guess is that Amy’s sales were down and she decided to bail out early to generate extra attention for herself.

      • Ren DP Says:

        She didn’t leave early due to lagging sales. She was talking about leaving early that Friday night due to some of the smack talk about the women who chose to attend TAM, since we’re traitors to women or some silly bullshit like that for having the audacity to actually attend the thing. I didn’t take a poll of the others there, but I went to have a good time, I had a good time, and I resent the hell out of anyone trying to use people like myself as political pawns for someone’s psychodrama. People need to grow up and get over themselves already.

      • Michael Kingsford Gray Says:

        Ren DP:
        And your bona fides are: What exactly?
        You could be, and probably are, any random person with access to the internet.
        Why don’t you have the backbone to at least identify your potentially bogus observations?

    • franc hoggle Says:

      What does that even mean?

      Post facto embellishment as taught by sifu Rebecca Watson – “details forthcoming when I know what they are”. The emotion at the time to actually do something about it is overwhelming. It takes months to explain these appalling abuses. There are of course simple remedies as Mallorie Nasrallah pointed out on ‘tardbook –

      Also what needs to be more visible is the 911 phone number, because apparently these morons think the best course of action is to wait two weeks then blog about what almost happened to someone you kind of know.

  12. Muzer Says:

    The very instant I saw this, this came to mind:

    • Muzer Says:

      Just to clarify because I can already see the protests, I’m talking about the tameness of the comment that caused the “offence”, obviously this is on a much smaller scale than the tweets!

  13. Justicar Says:

    Oh, and thanks for traffic; I was wondering where all of the traffic was coming from. lol

    Watson et ass are professional victims. Remember, for quite a lot of those people in the FTB network and its friends entire source of revenue is speaking engagements, selling merch at conventions, ads on their blogs. They have to make sure that they’re seen as being relevant. And if there’s no real issue at hand, they’ll just invent one.

  14. onefuriousllama Says:

    Hm, I never thought of it the way Justicar puts it. If your everything depends on being in the thick of things why wouldn’t you create something to be in the thick of?

    I’m tired of this flaming idiocy and I’m pissed that people I once respected and wanted very much to like, even defended to other people on occasion, have made it impossible to follow and/or listen to.

    • Southern Sceptic Says:

      I couldn’t have said it better. I actually feel utterly ashamed to have supported and backed some of these same people for years (quite literally).

      I have a whole host of implanted medical devices keeping me moving and breathing and walking and talking (a fact that I’m tremendously proud of, given the alternative), but even this disability pensioner got tarred and feathered for suggesting that “ableism” (and some of their other cheap & nasty “pro-anti-sexism” pseudo-labels) was a strawman at best, and actually (as opposed to perceptually) offensive!

      I ended up deregistering (unsubscribing) from the entire FtB ‘commune’. To be sure, it was the last straw, but it was so much more of the same all in one unthinking swat.

  15. Surly Amy Cries, Leaves TAM Over A T-Shirt « SkepDirt Says:

    […] is Thunderf00t’s dissection of the situation, including a great video made for it. Rate this:Share this:EmailLike this:LikeBe the first to like […]

  16. FreeThoughtStorm Says:

    If I cry and throw a fit I will get pitied and get my way!!1!! These women do more against the women’s movement than for it. Makes me ashamed to have a vagina.

  17. Cattlehunter Says:

    I am struck dumb with disbelief. Even through all their amazing levels of totally-not-sexism-cuz-you-cant-be-sexist-against-men and groupthink and all the other weirdness, I’ve been osmewhat sympathetic to their plight, if not in any way the method.

    But this is absurd. This can’t be true. Come on? That girl has to be making it up to get attention or something? And the FTB-guys are, uh, humoring her as a form of satire? Or something?

    This is really depressing. Even though their hysterics, I can kind of see how they reach the conclusions that make them act the way they do, but this… taking seriously someone who was brought to tears by a t-shirt with the most mellow statement I can imagine formulating of its position… this… I can’t believe it.

    I need to take a break from all this. Go to /b/ or something. The people are more sane and reasonable there.

  18. Mike De Fleuriot Says:

    Anyone doubt that this is only about marketing their products for Skepchick. Because there is no other reason to be so irrational, but you have to admit it is really working.

  19. Oss-Seven-Point-Six Says:

    I’m starting to think that many of the Skepchick crowd have Asperger’s Syndrome. Look at Rebecca Watson; when I watch her speeches, she often has unusual mannerisms and movements. That alone isn’t enough to point towards that conclusion however. The reality that she seems to take every signal troll comment literally and seriously is what makes me think she has a placement somewhere on the ASD scale. The fact that she also seems oblivious to the feelings and reactions of others when she makes her self-pity speeches and self-serving comments on the issue only adds to my personal (IMN a doctor) diagnosis of her.

    That said, this isn’t an excuse for her behaviour. If she does have ASD, she could learn and should have learned how to develop behaviours to counteract the typical latent behaviours of Aspergers/ASD. As she is, I bet if she was to admit she had any sort of syndrome, she would use it as an excuse for her past behaviour whilst claiming everyone is prejudiced against her.

    • Anonymous Says:


      • brainfromarous Says:

        No, Anon, that’s the other side.

        Take a stroll over to FTBs and count how many times people who make even the mildest criticism of SkepChick(s), ElevatorGate or their groupthink on related issues are summarily dismissed as personally corrupt or stooges of some “oppressor” class.

        Bring a calculator, because their entire “privilege” rhetoric is one giant well-poisoning exercise.

    • FreeThoughtStorm Says:

      Rebecca Watson’s problem is clear: she didn’t get attention as a child/teen (especially from the opposite sex) and now she has found a niche that gets her plenty. She also gets to pretend she is being sexualized constantly (when she is clearly not). It’s so obviously self centered and conceited it makes me nauseous. I don’t take every whistle or compliment from a man as a rape threat, whether or not I like it.

  20. Mike De Fleuriot Says:

    Until there is proof of that condition, I do not think it can be used in this conversation. All we can say is that some of us find her behaviour irrational and as you say self serving. They are not doing our movement any good, as the t-shirt suggested, rightly I think.

  21. kennykjc Says:

    Wasn’t there something a while back about “female” being a derrogatory term which sent a girl crying to the bathrooms?

  22. DamagedBrainCell Says:

    Just…I….WHAT?!? REALLY?!?
    No, this is fake, this cannot be real! No-one in todays society can be that thin skinned! Hell, no-one can bear the title ‘skeptic’ (albeit buthcered) and be that frigging stupid!! I own a t-shirt that says ‘Jesus is a c**t’ on it (no, not ‘coot’. It’s a Cradle of Filth album name. And no, there are no asterixes on the shirt). I have talked to Jehovahs Witnesses, Creationists and Baptists in this shirt. Not one of them eeeever started crying or wailing about it!
    I give up. These people have turned Feminism into an unfunny joke. It’s being overrun by ignorant complainers, living in a priveliged society and desperate for something to complain about so they can be deemed heroes or martyrs for standing up for an increasingly petty cause. TFoot, never get angry for these idiots calling you names or kicking you off ‘GroupThinkBlogs’. They are merely trying to turn you into a villain so they can be seen as victims in their cause.
    I’m done, no more being polite, no more using intelligence or reason with these idiots, they can all go f**k themselves with a cactus. (And no, not ‘folk’)

    • It's like Roswell but with pants Says:

      There is only one explanation for this. Andy Kaufman is alive and playing the greatest comic prank ever conceived.

      Have you ever seen any of these skepchicks and FtBers in the same place as Andy Kaufman? No? That’s because they is him!

  23. Timothy Knight Says:

    It’s Curas1 from youtube and as a skeptic first and foremost I can’t believe the way feminist and other groups like secularist go on about their causes like it was one and the same with true atheism.

    Reason and free thought should not be a vehicle for someones socio political agendas

  24. masakari2012 Says:

    Ben Radford found that it was impossible to have a civil discussion with Skepchick back on Jan 11st. Skepchick and FfTB have been on a witch hunt for the last year…

    “Perhaps the starkest contrast in all this is the difference between how Julia Lavarnway treated the exchange and how Rebecca Watson treated the exchange. In one case I was having a respectful dialogue; in another I was subjected to insults. Lavarnway was genuinely interested in trying to understand what my points were, while Watson was eager to mock and ridicule.”

    There has been a lot more bullying, strawmanning, and name-calling against others who disagreed, from Skepchick and FfTB, and it’s funny that they end up crying when someone does something as harmless, like wearing a t-shirt that they don’t like. Fuck, I’m against religion, and I won’t cry when someone wears an “atheists are going to hell” t-shirt, or whatever is against my views.

  25. John Says:

    Fantastic post. You’ve got this is the weird new FTB fundamentalism wrapped up in a nutshell. How can they possibly spend this much time saying horrible, atrocious things about complete strangers voicing even the mildest of disagreement, and not ever consider that other people might resent that?

    As if words on a t-shirt are even remotely on the same level as that “rape apologist, mra” bullshit they throw around at the slightest non-provocation.

    These people need to start monitoring their tone or eventually they aren’t going to have anyone left in the movement that they haven’t completely alienated.

    • Mike De Fleuriot Says:

      They will have each other…

      • John Says:

        Well, until they start cannibalizing their own. It’s only a matter of time now before the witch-hunt starts turning them against each other.

        In fact, I’d take a wager that most of the people gloating over this recent debacle are probably former FTB folk who fell prey to the bizarre mob-mentality that’s running the place now.

  26. justnorrik Says:

    Playing the “offended” card is just another method of restricting freedom of speech and trying to control knowledge and information…

  27. Wrath0fKhan Says:

    Sweet, TF, sweet…

  28. FreddyFuFu Says:

    The feminism storm brewing in the “atheist community” is making rational people look more retarded than superstitious ones. In fact, this looks like misandry disguised as feminism.

    • blatant display of bad humor Says:

      Just waiting for the Poe to hit the fan… perhaps something along the lines of male sex pheromones compromise consent, therefore excreting pheromones is tantamount to attempted r-word.

      The year is 2042pz and all men are now required to wear hermetically sealed man-burkas…

  29. Anon Says:

    Honestly this is something bigger going on right now in the feminist community. Like something drastically changed cause the number of attacks from feminists where people are being called sexist has drastically increased and regardless of what your thoughts of each issue they all end up with feminists being destructive.

    -Simon Pegg was just recently called sexist for simply calling a bunch of cosplayers using the word “attractive”.

    -Daniel Tosh and Louis CK both have campaigns to get their shows canceled because Tosh defended himself against a heckler at a comedy club and Louis while on vacation gets attacked cause he didn’t know about the heckler and just said he is funny cause of his show.

    -People who like to play video games are being generalized into one large community being called sexist as well as the video game industry where feminists are demanding that games be designed the way they want them instead of allowing developers and writers to design games how they want to design them

    There are many more and I for one don’t understand what the hell is going on inside the feminist movement because it is just being a pure destructive force online stomping on the free will of others and being a thought police where you can’t even call someone attractive when you look at a picture.

    Anyone know what the hell is happening and who is making all these people act this way?

    • Anonymous Says:

      http://xkcd.com/285/ and context needed.

    • JackD1911 Says:

      I think the resistance they’ve begun to get, from both the inside and the outside (ex-feminists/men’s rights advocates using real data against their bald assertions/egalitarianism/women becoming unhappier, even with all of the “equality” [in parentheses because special treatment is not equality, it’s benevolent sexism] they’ve gained) is pushing them to become more extreme in response.

      When views like this start becoming legitimized; http://youtu.be/JAN3EvkgyE8 That’s when they start becoming “victims” again. The victimized woman elicits an innate response in us to want to protect them from danger, but people are starting to see through the ruse.

  30. Christopher Schroeder Says:

    So it just occurs to me that the term “Chick” to describe a woman has been called sexist in nature. Do the Skepchicks want to rape each other? should they be worried about that?

  31. rsble Says:

    You hit the nail on the head. This girl calls herself “surly” amy. What a hardass.

    Somebody pass the kleenex.

  32. rsble Says:

    Anyone know what the hell is happening and who is making all these people act this way?


    Yes they have festered in echo chambers throughout the internet and ratched up their own victimhood to a ludicrous degree in a bid to out-victim one another.

  33. Mike De Fleuriot Says:

    What would really be positive if some real victims of oppression came out and gave their opinion on these things.

    • bluharmony Says:

      When truly disadvantaged people come out — people who have actually been oppressed — they call them privileged or liars, and summarily dismiss them.

  34. Anonymous Says:

    i got your back jack, bitches be crazy

  35. Ron Murray Says:

    My first thought on reading this, after the initial disbelief, was that the woman clearly has issues. Thinking about it a little more, however, it can easily be explained in terms of the whole group’s past behaviour.

    Their whole modus operandi was to remove all traces of dissent and surround themselves with people who agreed with them. Remember the elevator fiasco? To me, the first red flag was not when Rebecca Watson claimed she felt harassed by Elevator Guy (if she says she felt harassed, then she felt harassed. I have no reason to disagree with her). No, the first indication that something was up was when she called out Stef McGraw for daring to disagree with her. And it wasn’t just a simple calling-out; no, she went into full-rage mode (I think the words “gender traitor” were bandied about, but I could be wrong).

    And so it progressed. The whole crowd coalesced into the groupthink circlejerk that is FreeThought Blogs (!) and its co-jerker Skepchicks, and anyone who expressed even the slightest trace of disagreement with them and their ideas was hounded out.

    Then comes this year’s TAM. They agitate for, and get, a policy against harassment. Never mind that one person’s harassment is another’s welcome distraction, they just *had* to have it.

    TAM starts. Surly Amy’s on top of the world. Nobody can disagree with them now. Anyone who might have done so wouldn’t have gone to TAM anyway. Life is good.

    Then Harriet shows up with *that* T-shirt, Surly Amy’s world turns to shit. Not only a dissenter, but a dissenter she can’t have thrown out of the conference, do to the fact that Harriet has more skeptic cred than Surly Amy does! And one of her heroines to boot!

    What else could she do but cry? And, when that didn’t work, she did the only thing left — she took her ball and went home.

    • Moriarty Says:

      Bravo Ron, great post.

    • Heintje Says:

      Watson didn’t use ‘gender traitor’ in her public assasination of Stef McGraw’s character. The dubious honour of being the originator of that epithet went to an even loonier feminist, Skeptifem (think Watson x Greg bin Laden); and the target was Abbie Smith (the author of ERV blog) for her crime of writing posts critical of, or poking fun at – I can’t remember – PZ and Watson.

      • Anonymous Says:

        Great job trying to correct original poster, however without quotes/links/reference/context this is just as bad.

      • ERV Says:

        He cant post links because Greg Laden and Stephanie Zvan led a campaign to harass NatGeo about my blog, demanding it be taken down because they were offended, as well as contacting my department head in an attempt to get me fired (Im a grad student). They proudly boasted about it at that same Skepchick conference.

        Of course NatGeo wasnt going to censor anything, but to stop them being harassed over me, I took the ‘offending’ posts down.

        So now you cant read it for yourself. FTB has taken that right away from you. Proudly. SCIENTOLOGY! I mean, FREETHOUGHT!

      • LMU Says:

        What exactly do you need citation of? What context do you need? Please be more precise or it is hard to know exactly what you are objecting to, so that we know goalposts aren’t being moved when your objections are answered.

        I think Heintje may have been referring to this post by skeptifem: http://skeptifem.blogspot.com/2011/07/inside-mind-of-gender-traitor.html

      • John C. Welch Says:

        I actually did reply about this on one of Greta’s posts, because there were people saying FTB bloggers had called Abbie a “gender traitor”. That was incorrect, and I provided links where it had been done by commenters on FTB and other blogs (Ophelia’s previous B&W site for example.)

        Greta’s response was to decide that because her pets didn’t like me, I had behaved poorly on other cites and was now banned from her blog. Note that I wasn’t rude on her blog, because she’s (theoretically) clear and (supposedly) doesn’t like that. Evidently, all that matters if is one of her pets decides you violate rule 9, and you’re out.

        I almost want the universe to provide her with a reason to talk to me so I can, in the most pleasant tone of voice and cheeful demeanor ever seen say “Greta…you don’t wish to allow me the privilege of any form of voice on your blog. So why would I ever wish to speak to you under any circumstances?”

        It’s immature, but fuckit.

    • InnocentInfidel Says:

      Great synopsis of the shit storm these skepchick/feminist are causing. I view them as the Atheist/secular/humanist movements’ -equivalent of the ‘Westbro Baptist Church’ type of ferrals, piggybacking their causes at every opportunity by tagging along on the coat tails of genuine skeptic meetings and seminars. They definitely have their own agenda and it seems to be based on whimsical, hysterical feminine ‘victim’ cards. Whenever I watch any of the table conferences involving the likes of Watson and her die hard supporters, I don’t see women of strength, I see very insecure individuals that are causing young impressionable girls approaching adult life to be quite frankly, terrified, insecure and paranoid individuals compelled to fall into line with the groups dogmas….very much like organised religion does to young minds.

  36. Dean Esmay Says:

    Without going into too many details, some years ago I had a shattering realization as an atheist and skeptic that atheists and skeptics were no more immune to groupthink or dogmatism or intellectual bullying and intolerance than anyone else–these appear to be human traits, not something imposed by religion. Part of me had kind of known this but it hit me full in the face with some other issues I won’t go into here some years ago. (Fair disclosure that I’ve become nominally theist since then but not exactly because of that.)

    But the evidence is there. Feminist dogmatism and bullying is certainly one strain of it. But if you think hard on it, have you ever looked hard at Ayn Rand and her Objectivist crowd? They place reason supreme, they’re dogmatically atheist, and they’re batshit crazy. Marxism? Well it’s just about functionally dead anymore except a few pockets here and there, but guess what? Convinced it’s scientific, rationalist, and of course atheist.

    No, this is not an “atheism is a religion” argument. It’s deeper: these traits toward demanding conformity, demanding dogma, demanding groupthink, establishing a pecking order and dominance hierarchies and fights over who’s going to be at the top of the order: they’re part of the human primate. Or at least most of us.

    The important difference here of course is that Objectivists haven’t gone around turning whole countries into slave camps and it’s obvious there are many self-proclaimed feminists who aren’t batshit insane (and by the way, for the record, have met some of those dreadful “MRAs” and while some are nutty a number are perfectly decent and rational men and women). The point is, the lesson is, I think, these things we tend to ascribe to religion? Enh. No. They appear to be common human traits to the homo sapiens sapiens primate, and probably the other higher primates as well. You’re probably not immune yourself if you think about it; question is how much can you let your rationality stop yourself and check yourself on it? It’s probably worth the hard work.

    • Christopher Schroeder Says:

      People are people. We seem to think that being an atheist is the pinnacle of rational behavior and intelligence. In reality, its probably only the first step down those paths.

    • Anonymous Says:

      I think a lot of skeptics out there need to lean more about socio-anthropology. There are MRAs that have sad stories and have been destroyed by poor court judgements, but there are also college dudes who go on tirades about being ‘attacked’ because one of their friends said not to sleep with the passed out girl.

      Sadly, these people move to tribe/groups/clans/families for comfort… sometimes it’s easier to accept a person you disagree with if you can bond with them over something. This is a huge overgeneralization of course, but it’s worth reading up on.

      Feminism is a male-positive idea. There are feminists who are jerks to men. We need to divorce the two and call out the jerks on the internet whomever they are. And sometimes, everyone in the room is a jerk.

    • Andre Says:

      Studies show cult members are just as intelligent, if not more so, than the general public. And around 95 percent of cult members are perfectly sane (when they join up, anyway), with no history at all of real psychological problems. They’re not stupid, and they’re not crazy.

      I am not saying Feminism is a cult (I think of my self as a feminist no matter how many times I am told I am not) but mindlessly doing things because all our friends do them is pretty much 90 percent of what society is. If normal people get pulled into cults how much easier is it to lose perspective on something with real value like feminism and start thinking that maybe that guy in the elevator really might have been a rapist.

      Thank you Cracked for wording that better then I could.

  37. ZPenn Says:

    This really seems odd. To me, the true feminist is the one wearing that T-Shirt. “I’m not a woman skeptic, I’m a skeptic”. That’s true feminism. That T-Shirt openly declares the equality of women, while the crazies at skepchick are forcing themselves into the position of a minority and demanding to be treated differently than men just because of their gender. Isn’t feminism about everyone being treated the same?

    • Dean Esmay Says:

      If you start looking at it hard, “feminism” is a Rorschach Test word, that means whatever the person saying it wants it to mean whenever they feel like it, and, the listener does exactly the same thing. Ridiculous arguments go ’round and ’round because neither the speaker nor the listener works from a rigorous definition of the word or, if they do, they don’t agree on their rigorous definition.

      This has led many rational individuals to simply stop using the word. I generally won’t use it, either in a positive or negative comment, unless the topic is very specific and even then I prefer to shy away from it. I will point out that by calling it “FEMinism,” it leaves out half the human race and denies any possibility that males of the species have their own issues that affect their sex specifically and that they should be welcome to the table to discuss them. Yet if you try bringing some of those up, you get slammed with the dreadful “MRA” label and assumed to be a bigot, a rape supporter, and more.

      You can’t get through life without labels but the labels often get in the way of talking about the ideas.

  38. jjj Says:

    What the fuck? How did I get here? I started out being all like “why do people believe in God?” and now I’m reading about some… some… anime con drama. Seriously I feel like I’m in a trashed hotel room where some loud fat cosplayer I just met is telling me how her ex-roommate’s cousin’s cosplay group sabotaged her panel(and one of them is stalking her). Does this shit happen at EVERY large 3-day gathering?

    • operatoroscillation Says:

      “What the fuck? How did I get here? I started out being all like “why do people believe in God?” and now I’m reading about some… some… anime con drama. Seriously I feel like I’m in a trashed hotel room where some loud fat cosplayer I just met is telling me how her ex-roommate’s cousin’s cosplay group sabotaged her panel(and one of them is stalking her). Does this shit happen at EVERY large 3-day gathering”

      I wish I could thumb up your comment if only it were allowed.

    • brainfromarous Says:

      I think I just cracked a rib from laughing.

  39. John C. Welch Says:



  40. I didn’t want to hurt you but you’re pretty when you cry. « SINMANTYX Says:

    […] I was going to just post this as a comment to this blog post by Thunderf00t, but I’m posting it here.  I gave into parental-style rage…um….just a little […]

  41. Jason Cullen Says:

    I was going to give them the benefit of the doubt until I read the t-shirt. Really? Tears? Pathetic!

  42. spokkerjones Says:

    Can you be sexist and racist at the same time, or is that too hardcore? I wonder sometimes.

    For example, I hate feminists and I hate race baiters and shit. Can I do both without everyone hating me or is that nightmare mode?

  43. John Hancock Says:

    Wearing a shirt that says, “not a skepchick” is “dehumanizing … very hurtful” according to this Amy Roth. What about the people that consider the word “chick”, when referencing a female, offensive? She is dehumanizing people by belonging to a group called Skepchick.

    What about a shirt that says, “not a theist”, or perhaps, “atheist”; or calling yourself an atheist? Is that dehumanizing and hurtful therefor constituting harassment? She is dehumanizing roughly 90% of all people alive by calling herself an atheist.

    I’m still not clear on what their goals are.

    Are they trying to make groups have a readily available harassment policy? If so why doesn’t Freethought Blogs have an easily accessible harassment policy available on their website? They must be rape-culture promoters, right, or does that only apply to the other people?

    I’ve always thought of harassment policies as a bit odd. Harassment isn’t something that’s set in stone. What person A calls harassment wouldn’t necessarily be called harassment by person B. Not only that but there are degrees of harassment. It could vary from someone physically stripping you against your will on one end, to, I don’t know, someone wearing a shirt with an opposing viewpoint on the other, and because of this, harassment and hurting someone’s feelings have become synonymous. Now when we claim harassment we have no clue on how serious the situation is. Is someone stalking you or maybe someone’s eye was twitching and you interpreted it as a wink. By conflating all of this together they have completely trivialized the whole concept of harassment.

    Also, I find it strange that you will get groups that try to change societal views on women then turn around and take on the traditional mother role and tell us what we should or shouldn’t be doing.

    I study economics, not English, therefor I’m a shitty writer, and because of that some of the things I wrote could potentially be contradictory and there’s a slight chance I wrote something I don’t even agree with.

    tl;dr: My dad says harassment policies are for pussies.

  44. Anonymous Says:

    Funny thing is…

    As a male, when criticising feminists or even feminism, all you do is push the movement even further into their proverbial bubble…

    • geehigh Says:

      Fuck knows what the Shepchicks are doing, but this has nothing to do with Feminists or Feminism. If you want to call this stuff by its proper name, try power-play. To call this shit feminism is an insult to the feminist movement.

      • geehigh Says:

        Whoops I meant to write ‘Skepchicks’ not ‘Shepchicks’. No offence intended to any male/female/hermaphrodite living or dead.

      • Privileged Male Pig Says:

        I think you accidentally coined a new term. “Sheepchicks.” I hereby define it as anyone who loyally and unquestioningly follows the matron saint Rebecca Watson.

    • Andre Says:

      As a male criticizing feminists I mostly just get dismissed for being male. I am blinded by my privilege or so I am told

  45. operatoroscillation Says:

    The funny thing about this T shirt, not only is it not masogynistic, it actually looks like something a feminists would wear. There are feminists who don’t like being called “chicks” or like being marginalized as a “female skeptic” while males are just “skeptics”.

  46. mojo.rhythm@gmail.com Says:

    Feminists do themselves a disservice by crying foul over such trivial acts as this.

  47. secular Steve Says:

    Over-sensitive man hating frigid trolls. Is she equally sensitive to online banner advertising for “grow your penis” or “erectile dysfunction”? Get a job in a library! FFS! Thunderf00t makes some valid arguments. His rational voice needs to be heard. Keep up the good work thunder.

  48. Roger A Says:

    First, has anyone asked Harriet Hall what she meant by this t-shirt?
    Reading this and other articles on women, skeptics and JREF/TAM, I have to believe Harriet was addressing two issues: TAM’s (and DJ Groethe’s) stance on women feeling safe at TAM. The second issue is her possibly dislike of being referenced as a “chick” of any kind. As a former serviceperson, I can understand her distaste of the term “skepchick”. To some degree, not all men appreciate being referred to as “boys”.

    TAMs harassment team made a common mistake we men tend to do when dealing with our partners/girlfriends/wives: TAM did not _ask_ what was needed to make Amy feel better or safe. They had already concluded that if a harassment situation should occur, Plan A will be put in motion. They _assumed_ this would result in the victim feeling better/safe (and possibly catch the “perp” in the act.)

    Assuming Harriet’s t-shirt was addressed to TAM co-ordinators and Skepchicks, what a weird coincidence that all three parties are drawn into this drama. One t-shirt did this! Remarkable! Well played Harriet.

  49. Moriarty Says:

    It seems to me that the so called skeptic/atheist/rationalist community is becoming a lot less rational since it appears you have to subscribe to a hard left wing dogma in order to fit in and be accepted.

    No dissenting opinions on any subject will be tolerated.

    If you attack Islam you’re a racist bigot.
    If you disagree with feminists your a rape loving misogynist etc
    If you don’t follow the correct political party you are a right wing nazi baby stabber.

    I thought we rationalists were allowed to make up our own minds and not have our opinions dictated to us by the “community”.

    • brainfromarous Says:

      Not “becoming,” my dear Moriarty. Always was.

      Here’s the thing: For various reasons, most having to do with the entrenched position of religious traditionalism in Conservative ideology, American atheist and Freethought-style movements have historically found a greater welcome on the political Left.

      This has led to some expressions of Secularism/Skepticism being nothing more than re-branded 1960s-style New Leftism with anti-clericalism brought to the fore.

      Adherents thereof assume that since they’re not marching to mainstream God & Country type drummers that this places them outside of ideology and politics. They see themselves as more akin to referees than players.

      Like fish oblivious to water, they don’t see their politics AS politics. Their views are just how every correct-thinking, progressive, modern, scientifically-minded person sees the world.

      They’re Johnny on the spot when it comes to calling out foolishness or malevolence from denizens of their roster of Designated Hate Objects: social Conservatives, Republicans, foreign policy hawks, Libertarians, devoutly religious folks… you know the list.

      But they are wholly vulnerable to the subversion of their principles from the Left: cultural Marxists, old-school Marxists, victim-politics hustlers, PC “sensitivity” totalitarians, MultiCulti and PoMo equivocators… and in this case, extremist, personality-cult Feminism.

      They don’t perceive attacks from the Left as attacks because…. well, they’re from the Left. Therefore they must be long-overdue internal corrections and “reform.” All the genuine dangers are on the Right, right?

      “Pas d’ennemi à gauche,” as the Popular Front famously declared. And so it seems on FTB…

  50. comslave Says:

    My response

  51. aceofsevens Says:

    I’m not sure what Greg Laden has to do with anything. That was a different conference and he doesn’t work for FTB or Skepchick. Also, he was being ironic by turning the usual assumption that men are the default on their heads.

    As far as I know, no one has said that TAM should have made Harriet change her shirt. This has nothing to do with harassment policy and everything to do with you holding a grudge because you don’t understand what free use is and can’t accept that it doesn’t mean you are free to use copyrighted material for whatever you want.

  52. Christopher Camp Says:


    All you entitled shirt-enabling misogynists can say what you like, but you will not deflect from the the fact that the t-shirt failed to check its neutral black and white privilege before it assaulted Amy Roth’s attention.

  53. Feminist reduced to tears by T-shirt | Thunderf00t « Kentekens's Blog Says:

    […] https://thunderf00tdotorg.wordpress.com/2012/07/19/feminist-reduced-to-tears-by-t-shirt/ Share this:TwitterFacebookLike this:LikeBe the first to like this. « FreethoughtBLAHgs The Justicar » […]

  54. Anonymous Says:

    Could you at least research the issue before making ignorant blog posts like this?

    -1 subscriber

    • Cattlehunter Says:

      If only there was somebody here to lift the veil of ignorance, then…

    • John C. Welch Says:


      there, all caps, and exclamation points, just copy and paste. You’ll save time in the long run.

  55. Jeez Says:


    Then why don’t you enlighten us on this whole thing?
    “Oh yeah it’s there you ignorant but I’m not gonna bother telling you why!”

    • Dean Esmay Says:

      No! [Flounce!] I’m not talking to YOU! Hmmph! [Flounce!]

    • M. A. Melby Says:

      Surly Amy did not say the shirt was misogynist, she did not say it was the only reason she left early, she did not call it “harassment”, she positively asserted Hall’s right to wear the shirt. Despite Hall’s intent in wearing the shirt, Amy saw it as an insult and explained that to Hall. Hall continued to wear it for three days, which Amy thought was excessive. Amy didn’t instigate any official response by TAM concerning the shirt or other treatment she received, they came to her when they found out she was upset. TAM’s over-the-top reaction to her being upset was a reason she decided to leave early, not because she was offended by the shirt.

      That is my impression. Of course, this is second and third hand – and I think it’s really obnoxious to make judgments about how someone feels instead of what they actually did or their stances about stuff – but hey – it might take a while for the world to figure out that talking about NOT talking about something is still talking about something.

      Oh yeah – and being offended is not the same as denying someone’s right to offend.

      If anyone wants to have a conversation about what people have actually done or said that was inappropriately shutting down conversations or borders on punishing dissent or any other viable conversations (which, by reading the comments it seems that a few people want to have) – you might want to quit figuratively high-fiving a counter-productive post that doesn’t do any of that.

      Oh – and posting a picture of Greg Laden saying something extremely stupid is a nice touch – considering he was kicked off FtB for non-civil conduct.

      Matthew 7:1-5

      Just sayin’

      • John C. Welch Says:

        Amy Roth’s right to be offended does not compel Harriet Hall to give a fuck.

      • aceofsevens Says:

        Has anyone suggested it does, much less Amy? People seem to be making fun of her for being offended. Unless you want to start policing what people are allowed to think, I don’t see what the point of making a big deal of this is.

      • The Devil's Towelboy Says:

        @M. A. Melby – Why don’t you read Sulky Amy’s own words, including her post facto embellishments that can no longer be substantiated and weasel worded non-apology about how she has “a lot of respect for Harriet” –


      • John C. Welch Says:

        Oh, and now, Ophelia memory-holed Amy’s comment. Which is par for the course when something is, or about to be inconvenient. So, you have to look at the cached version to read it.

        Ace, it’s less that she was offended, and more that she was so fucking dramatic about it. THAT T-SHIRT BROUGHT ME TO TEARS.

        I still want to know how she survives outside. I mean, a car splashing her in a rainstorm would put her in the friggin’ emergency room.

      • The Devil's Towelboy Says:

        John C. Welch Says: Oh, and now, Ophelia memory-holed Amy’s comment. Which is par for the course when something is, or about to be inconvenient.

        Sorry, need to correct. When FfTB comment threads spill onto more than one page, the first page comments permalinks get changed to include “/page-1/”. So it was an honest mistake to think they were purged by the FfTB revisionism squad. They are in fact still there – the wiki entry has been corrected to reflect new links.

    • John C. Welch Says:

      ah, so they do. Never mind then, i was incorrect.

  56. jennaisme Says:

    Reblogged this on Jenna Is Me and commented:
    Amazing. And you know that most feminists (Or at least i hope most of them) reject this behavior. The entire skepchick thing, as a matter of fact, is repulsive. It reflects so badly on feminists, and it once again makes the movement look very bad. All in all, i remain very skeptical about the legitimacy of feminism at large.

  57. Jeez Says:

    Yeah “Not all feminists are like that!” if I could get a dollar everytime I hear that one. I know there are good smart feminists even though I don’t like todays movement in general. For some reason it’s always the idiot or radical feminists who got the attention and the good ones hiding in the shadows. Atleast that’s what I keep telling myself.

    • geehigh Says:

      Well, in all movements ‘the squeaky wheel gets the oil’. You don’t hear about anyone else because they are busy doing what needs to be done. To judge feminism and feminists by what this shower is up to is unfortunate to say the very very least.

      • Cattlehunter Says:

        The ones doing “what needs to be done” are the ones who hold the position we see stereotyped in the skepchicks; they’re the ones who get all the money and have all the influence.

      • geehigh Says:

        @ Cattlehunter – IMHO The ones who are “doing what needs to be done” are the women such as this woman who posted this comment on Rationalia.com:

        “While the feminists sit around complaining about how hard it is for women to be engineers, I was busy being an engineer.

        When they complained in their women’s studies classes that there weren’t enough women in the hard sciences, I asked them ‘Why don’t you major in math or science or engineering disciplines?’ and they said ‘We don’t want to. We want OTHER women to be able to. Because they should. But not us, cause that shit is hard.”

        Link: http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=75&t=37971&start=105#p1219213

  58. victorsmyname Says:

    Reblogged this on alienationmentale and commented:
    I tend to chose writing my own thoughts on a subject rather than reblogging a different post, but I’d say this man is pretty much spot-on when writing about one of the most mind-numbing example of feminist stupidity to date.

  59. Vermin Says:

    Feminism, as it currently exists, is just another religion, just as goofy as the rest of them and far more dangerous than most.

  60. Mick-le-pick Says:

    WT. . .

    Utter insanity.

  61. MAG Says:

    I had a conversation on FTB about this topic yesterday, and although I was accused of being an “idiotic troll” and that I “don’t care about women” for defending Dr. Hall, there are definitely details which make Dr. Hall seem like she was attacking Crying Amy (she’s not surly, just a crybaby):
    Through tears on the first day (yes, she cried that quickly), Amy told Dr. Hall that she found the shirt hurtful and offensive, and Dr. Hall continued to wear the shirt for the next two days.
    It’s not as though the t-shirt was certainly innocuous.
    While Crying Amy’s reasons for crying were purportedly multifaceted, the t-shirt was the first and only specific event cited that led to it; just blaming a them-us mentality atmosphere.

    I think that TAM’s secret harassment police force is the much more important controversy, though. I think their actions, by interrogating and monitoring Crying Amy, made the situation far worse and probably contributed more to Crying Amy leaving early than the t-shirt.

    I just wish the Hitch was a live to see this. “It takes a lot to make me cry.”

    • Anonymous Says:

      I would humbly suggest that the “TAM Secret Harassment Police Force”, having been forced into being by the FTB/Skepchick crowd in the first place, was concerned that she’d raise yet another stink if they didn’t keep an eye on her when she was visibly upset. I’d say she really has only herself and her fellow nitwits to blame.

      • aceofsevens Says:

        Who requested the TAM secret harassment force? Everyone wanted a visible policy enforced in a transparent manner, not secret police and interrogations. It’s like DJ implemented the straw-man version of a harassment policy, which had to be a lot more expensive than what people wanted (see CFI for a good example) and led to way worse results.

      • John C. Welch Says:

        secret police and interrogations? Okay, so maybe overstating it a bit, and it’s not like Amy is either unbiased or objective here.

        But here’s the thing: when you start screaming about SOMETHING MUST BE DONE, quite often you will find that “something” is a goddamned pain in the ass and maybe not what you wanted. Perhaps instead of acting like hungry squab and demanding “action”, stating that TAM is “unsafe” and generally forcing a nice bit of probably overreaction by TAM staff, they could have not been assholes about it in the first place.

        Unintended consequences always make you their bitch.

    • ERV Says:

      Ive seen no evidence to suggest that ‘TAMs Secret Harassment Police’ actually existed or worked for TAM.

      For all we know, Roths ‘protection’ were people on ‘her’ side hoping to document ‘harassment’ and get it online ASAP (before anyone notified DJ, of course), much like how Bensons ‘threat’ was really an overzealous supporter.

      These individuals have done enough to damage their credibility that I do *not* take their statements at face value.

      • aceofsevens Says:

        Who are “these individuals?” What exactly has Amy done that makes you doubt her account. Are you saying you saying that Rebecca isn’t credible and AMy works for her, Amy isn’t credible?

      • John C. Welch Says:

        Skepchick as a group has generally led a “our way or the highway” movement in skepticism and atheism wrt feminism, wherein blind obeisance is good, and any form of criticism, *even factually based*, (No Rebecca, the Catholic Church did NOT execute Galileo), is the sign of a misogynist rape supporter gender traitor.

        Amy Roth has supported this in full, with nary a contrary word to be found. (Note: it is entirely possible to be someone’s friend and disagree with something they said or did. It’s called “being an adult”. If someone requires you never criticize them in public as a condition of friendship, they’ve no clue what friendship is.) Given that, It is entirely rational and logical to have issues accepting anything she says on certain issues at face value.

      • InnocentInfidel Says:

        Someone required ‘protection’ from a T-shirt? 😉

      • aceofsevens Says:

        She didn’t request protection. According to her account, TAM noticed she was upset and decided to help by having a bunch of people watch her.

      • The Devil's Towelboy Says:

        aceofsevens Says July 20, 2012 at 12:56 am:
        Who are “these individuals?” What exactly has Amy done that makes you doubt her account. Are you saying you saying that Rebecca isn’t credible and AMy works for her, Amy isn’t credible?


      • John C. Welch Says:

        Hey Ace? you should check some of the names on that thread. You’ll find mine all over the fucking place. So I definitely agree with everything *I* said, and if I really disagreed with anything said in the thread, I said it IN THE THREAD.

        you’re not very good at this, I bet you’re used to people who wilt easier. But keep on pushing that somehow, the fact that Amy eagerly participates in the AGREE WITH ME OR YOU’RE A MISOGYNIST shit is the exact same as commenting in a thread. It’s fun watching you look that stupid.

        • aceofsevens Says:

          Your evidence that she participates in this isn’t anything she said (or at least nothing anyone has referenced), but the fact that she participates on a website with people who allegedly do and hasn’t objected. Can we take your lack of objection to something said anywhere you participated as evidence you disagree?

      • The Devil's Towelboy Says:

        It’s cute when baboons throw around words like “evidence”

      • John C. Welch Says:

        Oh look, Ace is full-on white knighting her now. Tell me Ace, since you’re so sure that Amy is not absolutely in agreement with Watson on pretty much everything, show me that proof. Show me where Amy has ever, not even in direct disagreement with anyone, written anything on skepchick that is not following the skepchick party line.

        The problem you’re having is that you’re assuming I’m saying a lack of disagreement is agreement. I’m not. Amy and everyone else who writes for skepchick is, in public, (and that’s the only place that kind of counts), in full, vocal agreement with the skepchick party line as laid down by rebecca.

        This isn’t a lack of disagreement, it’s active vocal agreement. That’s an important difference. I know you’ll keep ignoring it, because it’s inconvenient for your narrative and “nice guy” gambit, but the concepts are in fact, different.

        It’s not just skepchick mind you. Other than a minor difference of opinion over sex workers, there’s been about two actual disagreements on FTB: one got Tf00t booted, and the other was when PZ jackassed all over Jen Mcreight’s poll, and she called him an asshole. Of course a few days later, she edited that part out, and there was no problem, she had “overreacted”.

        Funny how that happens when you disagree with PZ on FTB, isn’t it.

        So again, it’s not that Amy hasn’t disagreed. It’s that she regularly and vocally follows the skepchick party line, and whatever watson says is wonderful and perfect. Also again, i don’t expect you to read that any better than you read anything else not kissing skepchick ass.

        • aceofsevens Says:

          What exactly are you claiming that she believes and how do you know this? I’m pretty sure you aren’t seriously claiming that she thinks the Catholic Church executed Galileo because Rebecca said so once, but can’t figure out what you are saying.

      • The Devil's Towelboy Says:

        aceofsevens Says: What exactly are you claiming that she believes and how do you know this? I’m pretty sure you aren’t seriously claiming that she thinks the Catholic Church executed Galileo because Rebecca said so once, but can’t figure out what you are saying.

        Galileo was killed by an elevator stupid.

      • John C. Welch Says:

        I’m going by her public writing and statements. What else would be available?

        And of course you can’t figure out what I’m saying, you’ve no interest init beyond “proving” me wrong.

    • John C. Welch Says:

      Given Dr. Hall’s background, and what she went through, I can totally see her having three copies of the shirt just to drive home a very fundamental point: “You not liking something requires no one to change”.

      Amy could have easily said “Sigh, okay, whatever” and moved on. But instead, she chose to take everything so personally that it didn’t even take a whole day to be reduced to tears.

      by a t-shirt.

      Again, how does she manage to leave the house.

  62. masakari2012 Says:

    JackD1911: Is that what I said? I said Matt Dillahunty (not even “The Atheist Experience”) TOOK THEIR SIDE. Now learn to read properly and reply to what I’m actually saying, if you’re at all going to bother.”

    You said, “Dillahunty … seemed to have sided with the femtheists since elevator gate, and again when they started calling for TAM to implement some totally useless, redundant policy and for DJ Grothe to be removed.”

    I responded just to show that TAE didn’t side with the DJ Grothe removal part, as your comment suggested, though you may have meant that he sided with a group of people which wanted DJ Grothe removed. I know that Matt is not TAE as a whole, but I know that their blogs are usually posted in which they all agree, well at least they say that they do in e-mails.

    Calm down, we’re on the same side. Although I’m against FfTB and Skepchick, I have to be fair whenever possible.

    • JackD1911 Says:

      “…though you may have meant that he sided with a group of people which wanted DJ Grothe removed.”

      Yes. The “they” in “…and again when they…” is referring to the “femtheists”. (Watsonites, FftBloggers, and the whole lot of them) *Not* the unmentioned TAE. I hadn’t been following any of the rest of the crew on Twitter or Facebook to see what their thoughts were on it, only Dillahunty. My “un-calm” is due to TAE being thrown into the mix without my mention or implication…

      All is well.

      • masakari2012 Says:

        Thanks for responding back. At the time, I was following them, but not any longer. But their position is slightly different on some issues. But I completely understand what you’re saying, and all is well.

        A conversation like this would never be able to take place on FfTB or Skepchick though. If you were one of them, I would have got nasty responses back from you, and if I were one of them, you would have got it instead. It’s stupid since we’re just discussing simple points. Of course, when arguing against people like PZ, Opehlia, Zvan, Jen McCreight, Greta, Rebecca Watson, and their sycophants, you should use harsh language and insults while you have the chance. Because if you don’t, they’ll still accuse you of being an asshole just for disagreeing, still tar and feather you, and block you. This is why I don’t hold back on those fucktards anymore. They deserve the shit that they get.

        Best Regards.

  63. Spinnerpete Says:

    Is’nt it funny that when you make any group equal to, they want to be more than equal to. = does not mean >= to. I know that the feminist cause is a prime example. A popular womens magazine a few years ago had a column called “Arn’t Men Daft” where women told stories about their stupid men. Now turn this on its head, “Arn’t women thick” in a mens mag, Imagine the uproar from feminists. I want equality for all, Not replacing one group with another. Peace dudes and dudesses.

  64. Myron Says:

    I think it was her ego that was hurt the most. To get so upset over something so trivial, its like the freaking Nazi movement or something: You’re either with us or you are a rapist. I don’t care if they are feminist (even though I would be burned at the stake if I called myself a “masculinist”) but to get upset over something so trivial just shows that her ego was the most damaged of all. Its ridiculous.

  65. JamieD Says:

    This whole thing blows my mind away. Just when you think it can’t get any lower, it does. I’m going to share a story about a disagreement I had with my mother when I was about 18 years old.

    I’m 25 now. I remember there was some news report about a rape, local police wanted information from the public and so forth. Somewhere in the conversation, my mother blurted out a statement that really hit me: “I think all men are capable of rape.”

    So I immediately challenged what she had just said, but she persisted saying she thought ALL men were capable of rape, until I said to her “So you think that I am, and Alan (my brother) is too??” and she was stunned, and mumbled out.. “well.. no.. of course not!” So I kept it going and she never admitted that her statement was wrong, or that it was pretty damn horrible. A good while after, when I brought it up, she denied ever saying it, despite there being several witnesses. She just denies it.

    I wasn’t exactly offended by what she said, I was just disappointed. I was more interested in trying to find out where such a strong statement like that came from. Anyway, I had more or less forgotten about that incident until I read about the Rebecca Watson incident.

    Watson had brought up some feedback that was being sent when she brought up feminism on Skeptics’ Guide to the Universe during an ad lib which also included Richard Dawkins. She said that other hosts (male) either get feedback telling them to get rid of her, or she gets sexualized messages from men, who she describes as “atheists who don’t understand that they’re being horribly misogynistic.”

    Fair enough, we all know only too well that the Internet is full of trolls and horny people. For example, she even talked about the death threats and other stuff that Richard Dawkins gets. But what really got me was the following statement..

    “It is a problem, and maybe watch your own language and your own behaviour to try to root out any biases that may be lurking within you.”

    That instantly reminded me of my mother saying she thinks all men are capable of rape. Watson isn’t saying something so provocative in this instance, but it still mirrors that automatic suspicion of men. Are you really suggesting that I should watch what I say, and what I do, because I might be a sexist/misogynist and don’t even know about it?

    What baffles me is Watson doesn’t seem to understand what’s wrong with that statement. Still, I’m not exactly offended by it, just disappointed, as I was with the emphasis that she was in a “foreign country” when the Elevator incident happened.. that foreign country is Ireland, where I’m from, and it’s not an inherently dangerous place for women in elevators. I’m not saying that she was trying to allege that it is, but she did emphasize that she was in a “foreign country” when it happened as if that made it more scary than it would be back home.. but Ireland just isn’t Saudi Arabia.

    Then there is Watson’s claims that she receives rape threats and horrible messages from “Atheists”. Not men.. “atheists”. Not trolls… “atheists”. Not idiots… “atheists”. Why the emphasis on “atheist”? Atheism only tells you one thing about a person, he/she is not a theist. Atheists simply don’t believe in that kind of God or the religions that serve them. It tells you NOTHING else about that person.

    Watson and her crew seem to be lingering on alleging that there is a huge problem of misogynist atheists in particular, and they have absolutely nothing to back that claim up. For the reason I just described, it’s a ridiculous thing to even imply in the first place. My advice to Watson – knowing she wouldn’t take it after reading what I’ve written so far – would be to just delete the hate mail. Everybody who becomes “popular” online gets their share of hate mail, because there is no shortage of idiots who believe the Internet makes them anonymous and so they can say what they wish.

    On Amy Roth, I think that seeing one of her heros in the t-shirt is what brought the tears about. I’m not sure it was that she was offended by the t-shirt other than shocked at who was wearing it. As for the allegation of the “us vs. them” atmosphere, if there’s any real substance to that, then you have played a part in creating it. The “Skepchicks” have become a polarizing force within the movement itself, I’m sorry but you have no right to complain about a division that you are creating and seem determined to exacerbate.

    Anyway, sorry for the length of the comment everyone! 🙂

    • Spinnerpete Says:

      Heres a typical SB response to your post.
      You can’t spell “Heroes” therefore your whole argument is false.
      Cue a post about a sqid. I’ve unfollowed PZ on twitter. Not bothered with SB for about a year, Mostly because Im self educated, and when I asked questions on posts(I tried it three times before I stopped) I was abused for being thick. Peace!

    • Cattlehunter Says:

      I have nothing useful to add to your comment, Jamie, other than to say that I feel the same way you do, and I really like the way you articulated it.

    • Anonymous Says:

      I liken For whatever reason we love to hate each other…

  66. Root2Squared Says:

    If a man cried on reading a T-Shirt, people would laugh at him, and rightly so. But the gender is really irrelevant here. A society which discourages strong opinions for fear of upsetting the emotional state of its people is a society that will remain infantile and highly susceptible to emotional arguments rather than rational ones – active flourishing grounds for dogma, religion, and all kinds of woo.

    There is an implicit hidden misogyny in the attitudes of Skepchicks & FTBers which considers women as being incapable of being mentally strong, incapable of controlling their emotions like a mature adult, and as needing all of society to treat them like delicate flowers that do need be sheltered from the harsher elements of reality.

    For a people who throw around the words “privilege” and “social justice” so frequently, they seem remarkably blind to their own privilege that allows them to think that their right to not being offended or to a comfortable mental state is a matter of social justice.

    • geehigh Says:

      “For a people who throw around the words “privilege” and “social justice” so frequently, they seem remarkably blind to their own privilege that allows them to think that their right to not being offended or to a comfortable mental state is a matter of social justice.”


    • Amet Says:

      Non explains is it better than noam.

  67. Charles Says:

    Reblogged this on Rational Misanthropy and commented:
    I think we all remember when Hillary Clinton approached Angela Merkel with tears in her eyes because the German Chancellor wouldn’t consider restructuring Greek debt.

  68. Anonymous Says:

    For someone so high up on his horse about how feminism is an issue given too much attention in the secular community you sure won’t shut up about it.

    • Randy Says:

      What Thunderf00t actually said was that the threat of sexual harassment and rape at atheist conventions is an issue given too much attention.

      Now he’s talking about the enforced uniformity of thought at FtB on this issue, and the ridiculous behaviour this appears to be related to in the offline world.

      I’m glad he’s talking about it.

    • John C. Welch Says:

      It’s so easy to spot FTB fans, isn’t it.

    • The Devil's Towelboy Says:

      Anonymous Says: For someone so high up on his horse about how feminism is an issue given too much attention in the secular community you sure won’t shut up about it.

      I remember this routine from last time. Both Myers and Watson doing the “why won’t people get over this?” repetition right before launching a propaganda bomb via a gullible schmuck USAToday journalist (who’s a charismatic xtian to boot) –


      Yes, they had absolutely nothing to do with manufacturing that article. Watson’s “degree” has nothing to do with “science communication”. It’s in “creative advertising” – i.e. use of propaganda to deceive.

  69. Adrian Lee Magill Says:

    Insanity is having its way with certain people and certain mentalities. Hard line approaches to benign self expression is leading members of our society down the same hate filled path that created the terms “holy war” and “divine punishment.”

    Keep up the good fight, TF.

  70. Can Better Tshirt Says:

    […] […]

  71. Anonymous Says:

    I notice that the morons are baying for D J Groethe’s blood after the security-cameras focussed themselves on poor old Amy.

    Why do things have to over thought so much? What’s with the cretinous complexity?

    I’ve been to many events / conferences / conventions in the UK and the rules of all of them can be boiled down to:

    1. This event may have material that some people may find offensive. You should consider this carefully before booking your ticket. No refunds will be given for hurt feelings.

    2. Hotel and Event Security staff are here for your safety. Please do not hesitate to contact them if you require assistance.

    3. Read and observe the fire safety notices.

    4. Attendance is at your own risk. You are advised to observe basic security precautions regarding your person and valuables. We are not responsible for the loss of any valuable property.

    5. Anti-social behaviour is not tolerated anywhere in the building. Offenders will be deemed trespassers and will be required to leave.

    These seem good enough to me. I’d probably boil them down even further to ‘Behave yourselves. If you can’t manage that, there’s the fucking door’.

    This is so simple even P Z could follow it. 🙂

    • Michael Kingsford Gray Says:

      It is their business model.
      Pure and simple.
      To generate income, they need a new non-troversy each week. (weak).
      Even if they are forced to fabricate one out of whole cloth.
      I suspect that Bansome, for one, depends on the hits to pay her bills.
      PZ is in it for the same reason.
      The ego-stroking that he receives from horde of 5 year olds is merely icing on the cake for him.

  72. geehigh Says:

    I notice that the morons are baying for D J Groethe’s blood after the security-cameras focussed themselves on poor old Amy.

    Why do things have to over thought so much? What’s with the cretinous complexity?

    I’ve been to many events / conferences / conventions in the UK and the rules of all of them can be boiled down to:

    1. This event may have material that some people may find offensive. You should consider this carefully before booking your ticket. No refunds will be given for hurt feelings.

    2. Hotel and Event Security staff are here for your safety. Please do not hesitate to contact them if you require assistance.

    3. Read and observe the fire safety notices.

    4. Attendance is at your own risk. You are advised to observe basic security precautions regarding your person and valuables. We are not responsible for the loss of any valuable property.

    5. Anti-social behaviour is not tolerated anywhere in the building. Offenders will be deemed trespassers and will be required to leave.

    These seem good enough to me. I’d probably boil them down even further to ‘Behave yourselves. If you can’t manage that, there’s the fucking door’.

    This is so simple even P Z could follow it. 🙂

  73. SuperLulz Says:

    If I say that “males have an XY chromosome, with the “Y” chromosome having the inferior parts chopped off”, I’d be labelled sexist.

    But if someone says the following:
    “The male brain is just a female brain that has been DAMAGED by testosterone”.
    It’s okay?

    There’s a layer of double standard going on that is unacceptable. You’re either against ALL forms of sexism, or you’re just a hypocrite

  74. exsumper Says:

    A good analogy for what is happening is the following sad tale of
    what became of the UK Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament; “CND”.

    The CND started out in the 1950′s as an effective organisation, with broad public support for its noble aim. Its members encompassed the whole political spectrum from right to left, included in its ranks were members of parliament (equivalent to a senator) and other senior establishment figures.

    During the 1960′s and 70′s, control of the organisation was gradually hijacked by those of a radical left-wing/feminist persuasion. CND supporters who still wished to get rid of nuclear weapons but who didn’t share the new progressive dream (“douchebags, perverts, enemies of the people etc”) left or were forced out; for a demonstration of tactics see FTB.

    The CND achieved nothing!!! it became a ludicrous ineffective joke with little credibility or support. To illustrate how ludicrous one should read the account of a Labour Party MP. who wrote about his experiences on a CND protest march. He recollects being verbally and physically abused; for the heinous crime of accidentally straying into the “Wimmins” section of the march LOL.

    It is a bitter irony that the most effective and vocal campaigners for Nuclear disarmament in the UK today,are former Chiefs of the Defence staff and ex senior officers in the Armed Forces.

    This is just an example of what can happen, when some members of a single issue campaign, have the arrogance to believe that the campaigns other supporters share their political agenda/viewpoint

  75. Feminist extremism and religious fundamentalism are the same, just different teams « Jenna Is Me Says:

    […] Yesterday’s Skepchick fiasco got me thinking about the skeptic and new atheist community. I believe that skepchick isn’t insignificant when it comes to these movements, because i see far too many respectable and big atheists pay attention, and even supporting them. Ms.Skepchick herself, Rebecca Watson, is even in the same podcast as Steven Novella. Things like “The atheist elevator” incident, had most of the community strongly in support of Rebecca Watson. So she’s no slouch. Here we have a little girl who has ties to pretty big people, and is a large part of the skeptics and new atheist communities. […]

  76. jaygray Says:

    Here’s the latest quote from P Z Myers:

    Can somebody tell me (I am truly unfamiliar with this guy’s work) if he is a good teacher? I ask because (judging by the maturity of his postings thus far) I wouldn’t allow him anywhere near a bunsen burner unsupervised.

    • The Devil's Towelboy Says:

      There’s a humorous quip I’ve heard from several sciencey types that know the Naked Emperor – “Those that can, do. Those that can’t, teach. And then there’s PZ Myers…”

  77. tardisguy Says:

    Stay calm my friend
    Thus far you have been perfectly honest.
    While he throws forms of passive aggression and condescension.
    For what its worth (and from a no one perhaps its not worth much);
    but we’re proud of you.
    The game is afoot. Thunderf00t
    Godspeed (figuratively speaking)

  78. Steve_N Says:

    Here’s how insane this is: If one were to find a highly creative and politically adept writer and charge them with concocting an imaginary occurrence to make the skepchick contingent look HUMILIATING ridiculous and pathetic….they simply could not come up with something this rich.

    It’s…too much. I would sooner expect the risen jesus to show up at TAM than I would the skepchicks proving so wholeheartedly that they’re such superficial crybaby children.

  79. Anonymous Says:

    Wait a second, people are offended by t-shirts?

  80. hannanibal Says:

    I wonder how PZ and The Atheist Experience et al are going to spin this one? You can guarantee they will be on the side of the offended girl but it will be interesting to see how much squirming is needed to prove her right.

    • Michael Kingsford Gray Says:

      Don’t worry.
      The FfTB Department of Truth have already begun changing the story beyond recognition.
      Amy is now claiming that it wasn’t the shirt that bothered her. It was something else that she is keeping secret until she can fabricate another excuse!
      Orwell would shake his head in shame.

      • Anonymous Says:

        That’s why I’ve started becoming more active. I will take my knowledge of psychology and educate the masses in the art of detecting bullshit

      • CommanderTuvok Says:

        Re; Keeping things secret.

        Isn’t this the group who are always so eager to “always name names”. LOL.

  81. Rodney Says:

    You know, I never got too involved with the skeptical movement and that was largely because whoever I was dating at the time showed a marked disapproval, if I showed any inclination in that direction. That said, I always thought I’d live to regret it. But I don’t now. I’m happy I didn’t waist my money or my time. I guess that’s just my brain being damaged by “the heathen devil weed” Testosterone.

  82. Is anyone more hilarious than Surly Amy? « elevatorgate Says:

    […] see thunderfoot’s comments q Share this:TwitterFacebookLike this:LikeBe the first to like […]

  83. John C. Welch Says:

    PZ is simply becoming what his career and work in science would never make him: famous.

    He’s gone from a professor at a school in Minnesota to a “celebrity”. He’s on television, he’s in movies, and people pay for him to come and talk. He’s got a mass of sycophants who hang on his every word, and in the wee small pond he swims in, he has power.

    But like every insecure fish, it’s not enough. There are bigger ponds and bigger fish and he wants to be part of that. So, he realized that attentionwhoring and linkbaiting were helpful, at least in the short term, and that Watson swam with the bigger fish. Bang. head up Watson’s ass.

    Of course the problem is, he hasn’t DONE anything beyond be PZ Myers, internet asshole and coward, and eventually, he has to keep amping things up until even the proles start questioning him. Then Thunderf00t not only defies him but defies him on his home ground?

    Oh that will not do.

    Expect far more idiot attacks on Thunderf00t from the Myersians.

    • brainfromarous Says:

      Indeed; well said John.

      There’s something else: as figures like PZ move outside their familiar bases and comfort zones, they’ll begin encountering folks who are to them what they are to dolts like Hovind and Comfort.

      FTB seems to be chockablock with pundits who fancy themselves the second coming of HL Mencken and Mark Twain combined because they’re more skilled at rhetoric and debate than your average, credulous homeopath or Young Earther.

      But they’ve been in the bush leagues all throughout. In the wider world of politics they will encounter mighty gladiators on the other side of the ideological divide; passionate, articulate partisans with experience, strong supporting bases, plenty of money and who sport intellectual and scholarly credentials that make them look like children.

      These folks are the polar opposite of the gnomish academics and introverted, cowed nerds who are easily intimidated and silenced. They love propaganda combat and they’re good at it… and most are positively SPOILING for a fight.

      It will be interesting to see how eager Watson’s gang is to deploy their “Rape Apologist!” schtick when confronting men and women for whom political warfare, in-your-face activism and polemical knife-fights are a way of life.

      The kind of folks who will simply smile, crack their mental knuckles and proceed to explain where the SkepChicks can put those pendants…

  84. Steve Haworth Says:

    Admittedly I was far more worried when I first heard about this.
    I do have this nasty habit of worrying.
    I also walked into this with the worry that Mr EZ-PZ was much more intelligent that he actually is; Thus thinking he might be clever enough to actually do some serious damage.

    Then I found this one… beautiful video of him I found of him arguing with a Discovery institute creationist “John M”
    It… was… gold

    KK check it out: First hes asked a question…
    Becomes confused
    focuses on the audience reaction.
    deflects with insult…
    misdirects to simplify
    GETS the simplification!
    (My favorite part: “no, no… let him speak”)
    Stammering the whole time
    is then challenged “I wish you would answer the question.”
    (feels threatened, cant answer the question)
    and then FINALLY… blows off the question with an insult.
    (but not until after thinking about something to say)

    You could not get any more textbook delusional.
    (as in excitedly fascinating, not ‘yay, win’)

    Anyways… If any of you think you know something I might enjoy so far as information or behavior tidbits about these… really quite fascinating people.
    Please ship em to me.
    if not, that’s cool too, feel free to ignore that… whole rant.

  85. I can't believe it! Says:

    Surly Amy on the Skepchick web site: http://skepchick.org/2012/07/ask-surly-amy-how-to-deal-with-hate/
    Read it and weep!

    • Golden Not-A-Troll Says:

      Anonymous Internet Trolls attack anyone anyway they can… It isn’t excusable but it isn’t fair to link that abuse to the “Atheist Community”. Then to change gears and conflate such anonymous online threats with mere ridicule and mocking both online *and* real world is just unseemly. To drive that inappropriate conflation home, one of the proper responses listed is to ridicule and mock others.

      This looks like a violation of the Golden Rule… if it is okay for you to mock others, then it must be okay for everyone to mock you. And don’t be surprised if the amount of mockery you receive is disproportionally greater than the mockery you give, since your own public online mocking is displayed for billions to read.

      I am generally offended when someone demands empathy and consideration but is quick to turn around and deny the same to others. Unless people believe that everyone deserves empathy and consideration for their innate nature (or whatever), then complaining about not receiving empathy and consideration is just an inappropriate demand for special privilege.

      • I can't believe it! Says:

        I do sympathise with Skepchiks and what they stand for, but on this issue it seems they have become a bit detached from reality and have become entrenched in an untenable position. Perhaps they realise that. Perhaps that’s why they adopted the “if you’re not 110% with us, you are against us” strategy.
        Notice that Surly Amy in her replies to the comments apparently deploys the Rebecca Watson tactics of post-incident adding of details (fake Surly-ramics, live blogging of peronal attacks etc.). True or not, it’s a bit suspicious and reeks of “retrofitting”.

    • tardisguy Says:

      Lol – Just because someone suggests there will be violence, doesnt mean there will be.

  86. hannanibal Says:

    From Surly Amy’s blog:- “I firmly believe we need some more leaders in this movement to make a stand and speak out publicly to enforce the message that behavior that encourages violence against women and minorities, be it rape threats or supposed jokes about rape, death or violence should not be tolerated in a rational, humanistic, secular society. ”

    LMAO!!! So “behavior that encourages violence” is only bad when it’s directed against women or minorities!!?? WHAT THE FUCK! Get a grip love you hypocritical mong.

    • Christopher Camp Says:

      Yes, and wearing a t-shirt that states that reads that the wearer is not a ‘skepchick’ and feels safe and welcome encourages violence against women and minorities.

      Why are feminists so invested in identifying femininity as a victim identity? Women are the majority in most places in the west, but the feminists would have you believe that women are oppressed and that they are really to be seen as a minority.

      I wouldn’t want to be a victim. I wouldn’t want to be seen as a victim.

  87. Privileged Male Pig Says:

    WNBA players refer to themselves as basketball players. Not women basketball players. Perfectly reasonable.

    A woman at a convention wore a shirt that said. “I’m skeptic. Not a skepchick.” A feminist sees it and gets upset.

    I cannot facepalm hard enough.

  88. John C. Welch Says:

    Amy and the rest are pissed off because they were all fine in starting fights. In fact, they rather enjoyed it. Right up until the targets started defending themselves. Then it became horribly, horribly unfair.

    • CommanderTuvok Says:

      Indeed. And boy, have people started to stand up and defend themselves against these bullies in the last month or so. FTB is the proverbial Titanic.

  89. TheRedAtheist2183 Says:

    I truly hope some Skepchick supporters are reading this blog and the comments because I have a message for them: This sort of behavior, including the BS described in the previous blogs and videos about the Skepchick conferences, makes me absolutely sick. Normally, I would say the greatest enemy to feminism are attitudes like what you’d hear from an Islamic extremist or some other religious nut-job who wants to keep women in the dark ages…but, maybe I’m giving the Islami-crazies too much credit. This type of behavior and these attitudes do more to damage the reputation of female intellectual and emotional integrity than any religious dogma. Feminism exists to promote the independence and security of women by bashing stereotypes and setting realistic attitudes of women’s acheivements, competence, and potential. It’s not there so you can cry ‘rape-culture apologist’ at people who don’t agree with your silly outbursts (outbursts that only confirm your psychological instability). I consider myself an ardent feminist. I am deeply ashamed that these people share the title with me. Belittling the male brain by calling it “damaged” (you obviously haven’t done the neurological research behind that bit of deranged drivel), calling detractors rape-culture apologists (do you not realize how hateful that is?), and encouraging the stereotype that women are over-emotional ding-bats who go crying to mommy when something hurts their feelings by behaving that way and excusing that behavior…I am shocked and sickened by that. How DARE you make such statements and act in such a way and then scream and cry when people strike back? Did you expect them to go sulk quietly in a corner after saying such ignorant, vile things about them? I mean, why don’t you just tell all the men in the world that they are defective wastes of human flesh because they were born with a penis and have too much testosterone induced brain damage to understand your enlightened, vagina-gifted ideas? You insult me as a feminist by calling yourself one and acting so shamefully.
    I work in a very male-dominated field and we (yes, we, including the women) have a saying: Get the fucking sand out of your vagina!
    Seriously, Skepchick ladies (and the gents who support you). Grow up and take some personal accountability. If you don’t like being threatened with rape, and it’s understandable why you wouldn’t, then report those who are making the threats. Quit giving them the attention they so desperately crave by talking about it all the fucking time. Remember that you (and you should be so thankful for this) live in a country where free speech is a Constitutional Right you get to exercise without impunity. That means people get to wear shirts that might hurt your feelings and send you tweets that might hurt your feelings and send you emails filled with stupidity and vitriol. That’s part of life in America. While you crow so loudly for your voice to be heard, you’re essentially supporting someone else’s right to crow the opposite view just as loudly. It’s not a cherry-picking festival. There is no picking and choosing of who gets rights and who doesn’t (thank goodness!).
    Grow a backbone and remember your purpose: to improve the quality of life for women EVERYWHERE. It’s not to be yet another bane of our existence, and to become the bane of men’s existence while you’re at it. Stop making us look bad. You share a movement with amazing women the likes of Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Suzanne Clara La Follette, and Eve Ensler. Try to live up to the fine example they have shown. Try to remember the real problems women are facing and fight them as they do: with grace, intelligence and dignity.

  90. brwoodruff Says:

    It is a shame to see these types of incidents. I want to see actual changes in our society and the behavior of some feminists seems to back everything up years. Let’s not go out of our way to be marginal.

    SMH and hoping for a better future.

  91. tardisguy Says:

    This is a video to an interesting exploration of feminism.

  92. Marsha Says:

    First time to read your page. DISLIKE your calling anyone a “retard.” Would be nice if you chose a more descriptive, but not demeaning to handicapped people, word. And you can call me an overly sensitive female, if you must! But really, “you’re a retard” went out in the 5th grade for most thinking people, eh?

    • Jon Rohr Says:

      Can we fix this with a backronym and upper case letters?

      Perhaps we might substitute “Ridiculously Emotional Trite And Random Dimwit”?

      Any other suitable combination might suffice to avoid offending the wrong people and ensure offending those intended.


  93. brainfromarous Says:

    If Ophelia Benson is relaying her comments accurately, Amy Roth comes across as simply unhinged; going well beyond your run of the mill, oft-caricatured Angry Feminist sort of stuff.

    It also incinerates Roth’s credibility as a social observer or critic. Anyone “triggered” that badly by something like Harriet Hall’s t-shirt is in no position to judge or instruct others on proper behavior, sexism or what have you.

    This next comment may well seem snarky or unfair – and may well be – but from Watson’s reaction to Dawkins to this latest business with Roth and Hall, I am starting to wonder if the SkepChick gang’s whole “anti-Sexism” / “anti-Privilege” crusade is less about gender equity and more of a primal-scream group therapy exercise for some women with, as the saying goes, a bit of baggage.

  94. Surly Amy Roth gets president of American Atheists to denounce Harriet Hall hate-shirt? « elevatorgate Says:

    […] see thunderfoot’s comments Share this:Like this:LikeBe the first to like […]

  95. scordova Says:

    Thunderf00t you rock!

    I cited you favorably in my post about Rebecca Watson.

    If I can ever get around to highlighting your work again at Uncommon Descent, I will. You are freaking awesome!

  96. Jon Rohr Says:

    Excuse me for being both a male and late to the conversation but perhaps my testosterone-addled brain cannot understand the cultural context where crying MATTERS in adult discourse.

    There is no way to objectively ask this without coming off as some kind of chauvinist but that being said I will try anyway:

    Is the objective of this brand of feminism to create a bubble around women where they can FEEL equal while simultaneously having their emotional needs catered to?

    I was taught that the ability to control one’s emotions is a sign of maturity – by my Mother. Adults do not cry at each other in order to communicate.

    What is so wrong, so difficult, so inherently intimidating as to be emotionally crippling about the need to respond to unwelcome human discourse?

    Insults, both direct and indirect, unwanted conversational, emotional, physical and/or sexual advances all can be dealt with in a decisive adult manner without ambiguity.

    Tell the person to FUCK OFF and to leave you the hell alone. If they don’t CALL A COP. If the situation is spiraling out of control or you’re not feeling up for a confrontation – LEAVE. If you are in imminent danger – ARM YOURSELF. I don’t mean with a gun – common sense says that if you need one then you are in the wrong place – but a beer bottle, pool cue, bar stool – these are all effective force multipliers in a panic situation.

    Usually, however, just saying something rude is enough to chase people away. They might need to get in that last word/comeback, but who cares? People have been looking down their noses at each other for centuries.

    I can see why atheism and feminism might make great bedfellows, especially since most mainstream religions treat women like crap. It does NOT follow – to me – that in an absence of a belief in the supernatural I need to succumb to the urge to weep over minor emotional issues. A loved one dying strikes me as a more appropriate cause and I would do it privately, not parading my pain.

    WTF? “Look at me, I am acting like a child in an open adult forum.” Is it REALLY so wrong to respond to someone behaving this way as you would to a child?

    • brainfromarous Says:

      “Is the objective of this brand of feminism to create a bubble around women where they can FEEL equal while simultaneously having their emotional needs catered to?” (JR)

      Yes, in this case.

      If we base our claims on facts and logic, there’s always the danger that we’ll make mistakes.

      Subtle or clumsy logic errors, or new discovered facts can pull the rug out from under our stoutly-defended positions.

      But when it’s all about feelings (whoa oh oh oh, feelings) we have an escape hatch from empirical scrutiny… because that’s just how we FEEL.

      “This hurts me.”

      “That offends me.”

      “I don’t feel safe or welcome.”

      Every one of these statements could be made, at the drop of a hat, for any or no reason and all are non-falsifiable.That’s the whole point. “FeelingSpeak” gives us a lifetime, irrevocable license to say anything or contradict ourselves with every other breath.

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    I don’t get it? Sorry… I’m absolutely lost… I take it this is some sort of joke and I’m being poe’d…. but either way it didn’t work cos I got lost around the part where women were complaining a T-shirt was treating them as being equal or something… Did I get that right?

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  103. Dropjaw Says:

    Very late to this but still, WTF? I had to check it was not April 1st already.

    To me, the only thing the T-Shirt was saying is that there are no such things as skepchicks, just skeptics. Would this group be offended if I belonged to and wore a T-Shirt of, ‘Skepdicks’ A Male only skeptics movement?

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    I’m a woman and I don’t see what’s wrong with the T-shirt. I think it is true that people are skeptics and we don’t have to place any gender before it. So what are some people flipping out about?

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