So Ed Brayton, thats the leader, or owner or something of freethoughtblogs is now referring to me in these terms:
“I want to do whatever it takes to make sure that he is essentially drummed out of this movement, never invited to speak anywhere again and is forever a pariah.”
Awwww, what did I do to be referred to in these terms you may ask?
Turns out freethoughtblogs has a secret mailing list which they use, among other things to conspire against people (indeed I laughed when they cooked up what they thought was the ‘least damaging story’ to FTB for my expulsion. Boy did the truth take a backseat in that thread!). Now as with many top secret mailing lists of course FTB has some footer saying how everything on this mailing list is ultra-confidential (kinda a contradiction of terms in my books sending out ‘secret information’ to an entire mailing list) but that doesn’t stop FTB OPENLY disclosing/ leaking whatever they want on that list when it suits their purpose. For instance they were quite happy to openly talk about Greg Ladens ‘threats of violence’ on the mailing list and PZ was quite happy to discuss the happenings of this ‘ultra confidential’ list in his video (sorry too late to delete the evidence boys, I’ve got it all!). Oddly enough, freethoughtblogs did nothing to admonish this sickening and evil violation of trust, or write blog posts about how this could result in the exposing of peoples real identities, people losing jobs, getting turned into newts and burned at the stake or some shit. Nor do they seem to realize that their main beef that I ‘stole their personal details‘ is clearly stupid. I, and everyone else on that mailing list, would have had all of those details (whatever they actually are, I still have no idea) anyways from when they originally signed me up to the mailing list. So what exactly are these personal details they think I’ve ‘stolen’ here?
Secondly I DONT FUCKING DOC DROP.
Even if I actually knew what this personal information was (I seriously have no idea who most these people are) I wouldn’t care, because:
I DON’T DOC DROP. Never have done. Never will.
Honestly if I were in FTBs shoes I would worry about the other guy they expelled, Greg Laden, who also has access to all their personal data. He has a history of threatening people on FTB and stalking people elsewhere. Like tracking people down in real life and trying to get them fired (Abbie Smith of the blog ERV) etc etc. Notably this was all done while Greg was at FTBs.
Now I always found the behavior of the folks on freethoughblogs on this secret list to be kinda cliquish, where chinese whispers morph from rumors to facts within one or two emails. For instance, when I first joined I was accused of being an ‘rape culture apologist’ guilty of ablism, devaluing addicts, and not being careful between challenging islam and outright racism, all based on no evidence whatsoever! ya freethought at work!
Many emails on this list were on points on which “everyone” on FTBs agreed, simply for the applause of everyone who responded. There was a LOT of self-congratulation and self-re-enforcement (herding) behavior there. Conversely even modest disagreement was greeted with snide derision. The sad thing is that freethoughtblogs refer to themselves in humor as ‘the hive mind’ and as ‘free thought bullies’, when in reality both are actually fairly accurate descriptions. So why is any of that important?
So a week or so ago a guy called Michael Payton who works for CFI Canada (Center for Inquiry) put up a tweet about finding FTB unreadable. Now it turns out ironically Michael is on FTBs side on the issue of harassment policies at conferences (well mostly), however that didn’t matter if he was going to speak ill of freethoughtblogs and this precipitated an angry torrent of twitters from at least one FTBer and another to write an entire blog post about it (promoted by PZ Myers of course), and as with all such posts on FTB he (Payton) was repeatedly branded in the comments section with pejorative terms such as misogynist and MRA (the irony being that he posted an article on skepchick ‘speaking out against hate against women‘ FACEPALM). Indeed it turned out that merely hours after this tweet, CFI Canada had been contacted with calls for his dismissal. Yes his real life job was being threatened because of one tweet about FTBs!
That was a pretty disturbing turn of events having someones job targeted so quickly after a single tweet about FTBs, and after a brief chat with Michael, and knowing that FTB were going ballistic about this on their secret backchannel with some THIRTY messages being circulated on the backchannel about his single tweet, let him know what they were saying about him (naturally no personal details were passed on). Michael did not want to know, he did not need to know that personal info.
This is some of the chatter I passed on to Michael.
Just an early warning, I’m strongly leaning towards publicly making a minor deal of this – not focusing on Payton exclusively, but just as an example of the general attitude of dismissing all of FTB despite not being familiar with hardly any of us – *unless* there’s either an actual apology to us or some kind of sufficient reason for why it would be a bad idea to draw attention to his remarks at this time, such as a relevant illness.
WTF is it with FTBs and skepchick always wanting people to apologize for stuff? Anyways they continue:
I’m usually not one to get involved in internal disputes in the movement, but if a national leader of the SCA or American Atheists had been so openly dismissive of FTB as a whole, I imagine we wouldn’t just let that pass unnoticed. So I’d just like to know if there’s any good reason why I shouldn’t do this, even if I can’t necessarily be privy to the details of it.
Translation: is it safe to do a knife job on this guy?
and
“But his statement was so broad, so casually dismissive of some of the smartest people in this movement (me among them, I’d like to think), that he can’t really be surprised that one of them took offense at it and criticized him for it, can he?”
What sort of person actually writes shit like that? (well Ed Brayton as it turns out). I’m guessing you can see at this point why they are so terrified of this stuff becoming public. Personal details my ass!
Well FTB found out that I had given Michael Payton access to this information, I then became the subject of the secret societies wrath. This is just one example of MANY. This is Ed Brayton (the head/ owner or similar of FTB) talking about what he wants done to me.
“I want to do whatever it takes to make sure that he (thunderf00t) is essentially drummed out of this movement, never invited to speak anywhere again and is forever a pariah.”
That’s right, all I did was clued someone in whose job was being threatened as to FTBs little conspiring (some THIRTY emails over his single tweet!) against him and for this heinous crime FTB now wants me ‘drummed out of the community’ as ‘a pariah’. And now this whistle blowing action is being reported on FTBs as:
This is a gross violation of basic human decency. There is no possible spin that can make it into anything else. -Greta Christina
He is a vile hypocrite who has lost whatever shred of credibility he may have had left. -Jen McCreight
Tags: abbie smith, ashley miller, blogs, community, cult, doc dropping, dumb, free, freethoughblogs, groupthink, hounded, myers, out, pariah, pz, pz myers, still, thought, thunderf00t, zinnajones
Thunderf00t 
August 10, 2012 at 11:27 am |
Sinister stuff. I’m reminded of the way Scientology handles criticism.
August 11, 2012 at 11:20 pm |
lwnyuerdehanfalphdin
August 11, 2012 at 11:20 pm |
sampsgonusetcdejosoy
August 11, 2012 at 11:20 pm |
uyikstlalaikgwiayoft
August 10, 2012 at 11:38 am |
Its important that organizations like this be discredited. These are not intellectual explorers, these are at best Atheist trolls
(Anti-Theists that want to start fights for attention, beliving themselves to be in a position of absolute scientific authority over the opposition.)
August 11, 2012 at 9:50 pm |
“I see
and I hear
and I speak no evil;
I carry
no malice
within my breast;
yet quite without
wishing
a man to the Devil
one may be
permitted
to hope for the best. ”
–Piet Hein
To put it another way — I do not wish to take part in a lynching but if someone wishes to hang themselves I won’t wrestle them for the rope.
August 12, 2012 at 1:26 pm |
nothing really needs to be done, Just attention drawn to it. These patterns are nigh “Evangelical” in the sense they are defending their position with absolute nonsense, and i fully expect a wide array of any dirty trick they can muster up.
The game is afoot.
August 16, 2012 at 12:03 am |
I didn’t think he published the information, at least not at first. He passed on some information to someone the group was conspiring against, even so far as targeting his employer to have him fired. He released the details after he was branded a pariah. You could argue about the first release of information, which I would call justified, but the second was merely fair use in defense against public attacks on himself.
And none of this was illegal. Adding a disclaimer to your email isn’t a legally binding contract.
August 10, 2012 at 11:46 am |
Dude, stealing private, confidential information and publishing it is not okay. It’s not right. And you may say you don’t “doc drop”, but when you share these e-mails you can’t control what other people do with them.
Can you confirm that you removed absolutely all identifying features of the e-mails?
If not, you could very well have endangered someone’s life. Over being booted from a blog network? Grow up.
August 10, 2012 at 12:13 pm |
Can you prove he released any personal details? You’re making an accusation, you have to do some of your own work here.
August 10, 2012 at 12:18 pm |
I didn’t make an accusation. I *asked him* if he could confirm that he did, in fact, remove all personal details from any e-mails he shared. How is ASKING HIM making an accusation? Uh, seriously, try to read? Maybe?
EVEN if he did, though, if he had *my* real name and e-mail address I’d be quite concerned, because that’s just one more way that information could *accidentally* get accessed or released.
August 10, 2012 at 12:35 pm |
“(all the important (personal) info in the headers and footers cut”
Ah, fair enough. My bad on that. Apologies.
That said, my last point remains the same: thunderf00t simply does not have the right to have or share this information. And behaving like it is some ethical duty to do so? To tell Payton that the 30 people he insulted aren’t happy with him? Give me a break.
August 10, 2012 at 2:07 pm
Oh bullshit. Show us where you called out PeeZus and Ophelia et al for doing the same fucking thing. “I get email…” ring a bell?
Spare me the fauxrage over t-f00t doing something FTB does whenever the mood strikes them.
August 10, 2012 at 2:12 pm
Dude, where did you miss the fuckin memo that this was an explicitly confidential, private listserv? *Not* someone sending a blogger an e-mail?
August 10, 2012 at 2:37 pm
What is your problem with this? Just that it’s rude to share a private conversation? Don’t you think it’s also rude to try to get someone fired from their job over a disagreeing tweet? Or to call for someone to be “drummed out of this movement, never invited to speak anywhere again and is forever a pariah”?
Unless you think him sharing these emails is illegal (it isn’t), then what’s your point?
August 10, 2012 at 2:44 pm
Actually, stealing confidential information and distributing it is illegal.
Also, it isn’t just rude, it is potentially placing people in literal, physical danger. There are people blogging for that network who do not share personal information for a very good reason. Thunderf00t has no right to act as gatekeeper of their real names. (And why on earth should they trust him to do so?) Moreover, despite his hiding header information, that does not imply that someone could not figure this stuff out from information contained IN the emails.
August 10, 2012 at 2:55 pm
Where’s your evidence that he stole it? Why are you just assuming that he stole it? As long as he is on that list, or a friend on the list shared it with him, and he didn’t sign some sort of non-disclosure agreement there is absolutely no breach of privacy.
“otentially placing people in literal, physical danger”
How? He said he removed personal information, why just assume he is lying? I’m pretty sure Tfoot had his real name shared against his will, so I would highly doubt he would do the same to someone else.
These people are putting someone’s livelihood at risk, Tfoot is protecting this guy as well as himself. I don’t see how you have some big problem with this. Unless it comes out that he has given away their personal information there is no reason to get mad at him for it.
August 10, 2012 at 3:14 pm
It’s called whistleblowing, and it seems that you, FTB and the U.S. government have the same way of thinking: the whistleblowing is the problem and not the wrongdoings exposed by it.
I’d like your opinion on Wikileaks. Do you think the public needs to know about the secret wrongdoings of their government? This is much less serious in scope to gov’t corruption and evil but a it’s a similar principle.
Sometimes one needs to act unethically or illegally to get the truth out.
August 10, 2012 at 3:17 pm
So, was it worth potentially (or actually) outing people who have a lot to lose personally? For what, some comments against him? You cannot compare this to WikiLeaks. Not at all. This isn’t about the government. Real people are being harmed by this, all so TF can “out” some comments and private communiques about him. How vain and self-centered can one person be?
August 10, 2012 at 3:25 pm
Fuck me, people in these comments really have a problem with reading BEFORE you reply.
sdhfuhfsi@hdjfhsdk.com Says:
“This is much less serious in scope to gov’t corruption and evil but a it’s a similar principle.”
TerranRich Says:
“You cannot compare this to WikiLeaks. Not at all. This isn’t about the government. ”
“Real people are being harmed by this”
Where? Who is being harmed? You are assuming that Tfoot is lying when he says he removed personal information. Why?
August 11, 2012 at 7:20 am
“was it worth potentially (or actually) outing people who have a lot to lose personally?”
That depends on what they’re being “outed” for. Your innability to realize this shows your desperation.
August 11, 2012 at 7:25 am
“Actually, stealing confidential information and distributing it is illegal.”
@aleph squared
Someone is smoking sugar free diet frosted mini-crack.
E-mails do not have the expectation of privacy. If you put it in an e-mail, it’s not confidential. This means it’s not illegal to forward an e-mail.
You can’t steal an e-mail, as forwarding an e-mail is just a copy.
There’s the unauthorized access, but unless the e-mail listserv was password protected, that wouldn’t fly either. There are copyright issues, but those only apply to creative works, not personal information. Pics of you boinking your secretary would count as a creative work, and you can use the DMCA, but unless the act affects commercial viability, even that’s limited.
TL:DR – You’re full of shit, e-mails are not confidential.
August 11, 2012 at 9:42 am
“e-mails are not confidential” …. It is clear who is full of shit – have you ever worked for any large organisation? I cannot even begin to say what a crock that statement is. Hopefully this is not Too Long for you.
August 11, 2012 at 10:09 am
“e-mails are not confidential” …. It is clear who is full of shit – have you ever worked for any large organisation? I cannot even begin to say what a crock that statement is. Hopefully this is not Too Long for you.”
@oolon
No, your statement is a crock. Working at a large organization you sign what’s called a NON-DISCLOSURE AGREEMENT, or a small organization, or a medium sized organization, or just two people.
Here’s the point where you drop your jaw how stupid your statement is.
You see, it’s this EXPRESS WRITTEN AGREEMENT that you agree to keep private information private. You agree not to repeat, relay, transcribe, or relay information.
E-mails, in themselves, are not confidential. There is not the reasonable expectation of privacy. This is covered in People v. Lifshitz, 369 F.3d 173, 190 (2d Cir. 2004), basically asserting that while someone who mails a letter to someone has the reasonable expectation of privacy some 3rd party won’t open it and read it, there is no reasonable expectation that the 2nd party won’t share it with a 3rd party. E-mails, same deal, except everyone knows there is a forward button.
If you don’t feel like a fucktard, you should, because the AGREEMENT to keep information private, EXPRESS WRITTEN AGREEMENT that’s key. Without this, the only thing your large, medium, small organization can do is give you the boot.
August 11, 2012 at 7:37 pm
Exactly they will give you the boot because it is a private network and the communications belong to the company. You try forwarding confidential company results to the media/market from inside your organisation if you want to see how ‘legal’ that is dipshit.
August 11, 2012 at 8:13 pm
“Exactly they will give you the boot because it is a private network and the communications belong to the company. ”
But that’s not exactly true is it. You obviously have the reasonable expectation of privacy for personal phone calls, or a personal e-mail. Though it might take a moment or two for someone monitoring.
“You try forwarding confidential company results to the media/market from inside your organisation if you want to see how ‘legal’ that is dipshit.”
Here is your intellectual dishonesty. You moved the goalpost from a public network, the internet, to a private network. Keep on task, this listserv addressed PERSONAL e-mail accounts. You further moved the goal posts to issues of copyright, patents, and trade secretes. Even then you are full of shit because the bulk of these protections depend upon CONTRACTS, you know that big ass agreement you sign where you expressly agreeing not to share trade secretes. This would be a civil matter, not a criminal one. Further, there is only ONE state where this is a crime, and that’s Washington (RCW § 9A.56.010). And you know, there are exactly 0 reported cases of criminal trade secret theft. To even claim damages you have to assign a dollar value, and the ease the information can be acquired. As such, there is no precedent to validate your assertion.
You’re intellectual dishonesty is further compounded the fact that we are not talking about intellectual property, which would be a civil matter. We’re talking about listserv on a public network with access restrictions. And we’re not talking creative works, but rather personal politics, and the personal names of people. While the Watchtower Society set precedent for anonymous free speech, a person’s name is not a trade secret, it’s not copyrighted, trademarked, and there is no provisions guaranteeing privacy. There was no damage that could be measured in dollars. Further more, these “internet celebrities” are public figures. It’s not illegal for me to say Michael J. Fox was actually born Michael A. Fox.
So to sum up, you’ are a fucktard who is citing criminal activity where none exists, where the law is VERY clear on the subject. You have no reasonable expectation of privacy when it comes to personal e-mails, as the receiver has the ability to easily repeat, relay, record, or transcribe correspondence with a push of just a few buttons. No contract, no protection. I’m right, you’re wrong, go fuck yourself with a large organization with a non-disclosure agreement.
August 11, 2012 at 10:38 pm
TL;DR and I mean it this time! You win I give up for the sake of my sanity in trying to navigate this thread if nothing else 🙂
I refer you to Michael Kingsford comment – he sums it up nicely.
August 13, 2012 at 5:17 pm
Pinecone, I am clip ‘n saving your posts here. Jeebus, what a piledriver. Well done. 🙂
August 28, 2012 at 4:33 am
Quite frankly, it is hilarious watching Truthful Pinecone destroy everyone with his superior knowledge and reasoning. Keep up the good work TP! 🙂
August 10, 2012 at 12:37 pm |
That said, did he also go through all the body of the e-mails to make sure no personal details existed there (like someone calling someone by their real name?)
It is simply not thunderf00t’s right to choose who to share these details with.
But enough of this. I’m leaving.
August 11, 2012 at 7:59 am
“It is simply not thunderf00t’s right to choose who to share these details with.”
Actually it is, e-mails do not have the expectation of privacy. Unless there is a written agreement with a signature, or we’re dealing with copyrighted work, e-mails are not private, or privileged, or protected from being forwarded.
No, signatures that say “this is privileged” do not count.
August 11, 2012 at 9:47 am
This is a discussion about a private mailing list you moron – have you actually read any of the back story before commenting?
August 11, 2012 at 10:19 am
“This is a discussion about a private mailing list you moron – have you actually read any of the back story before commenting?”
Yes. People v. Lifshitz, 369 F.3d 173, 190 (2d Cir. 2004). You have the reasonable expectation of privacy mailing a letter a third party won’t open it, but once the second party opens it, it’s fair game. They can xerox it, transcribe it, post it on a cork board, read it on the radio, display it on youtube, tell your mother, your sister’s lesbian lover.
The fact it was “private” listserv accounts for nothing. Everyone on the listserv was using e-mail software, all equipped with a forward button. Unless there was an express written agreement to NOT forward e-mails, there is no reasonable expectation of privacy.
As I already told Zinna Jones, if you want privacy, don’t use e-mail, there’s a forward button. Use a private message server with an express written agreement. Without an express written agreement, and you have the expectation of privacy, you are delusional. Sorry.
August 11, 2012 at 7:43 pm
Hehe you have the mental ability of a pinecone. “Use a private message server with an express written agreement.” … And email is a message system using IMAP,POP or SMTP protocols – what exactly makes it different using something other than email? The magic ‘forward’ button of course because no other messaging system allows you to forward communications to others!
August 11, 2012 at 8:36 pm
“And email is a message system using IMAP,POP or SMTP protocols – what exactly makes it different using something other than email?”
Well, if you’re using the telephone, you do have the reasonable expectation of privacy, as in, you can expect that your communication will NOT be recorded and sent to a third party. Wire tapping is a crime.
Oh and IMAP/POP/SMTP on a PUBLIC network is designed to send correspondences from one network, to another. A message board for example differs because of ownership. There is a person, or a group, who owns or leases the physical equipment. Submissions to Acme Forums become the property of Acme Forums, and access is subject to Acme’s terms and conditions, as well as copyright. Communications are for all intents and purposes, point to point, like a phone call. This differs from e-mail where Widgets.com sends the message to Acme.com, and there is no agreement between Widgets and Acme. The cited legal precedent uses the post office as an analogy.
You sending me an e-mail is subject to the terms and conditions I agreed to with my ISP. Without an express written agreement between me and you, like a non-disclosure agreement, I could if I wanted forward the e-mail.
“The magic ‘forward’ button of course because no other messaging system allows you to forward communications to others!”
Yes, you’ve got it. If you leave a message on an answering machine, you don’t have the reasonable expectation of privacy. You agree to be recorded, and if that person shares your personal message with a friend, put it on a radio station, in a youtube video. Same deal with a personal letter. I could xerox it, fax it, read it to your mom, your mom’s lesbian lover’s dog.
E-mail, having that magic forward button, make this process even easier.
A telephone conversation had protections that answering machines and e-mails do not. They have a reasonable expectation of privacy, legal protection against unauthorized recording, wire tapping, or eavesdropping.
Now you concede my point, you can stop being fucked by a large organization with a non-disclosure agreement and feel less butthurt.
August 11, 2012 at 10:43 pm
Wow far too much time on your hands.
August 10, 2012 at 10:30 pm |
“If not, you could very well have endangered someone’s life.”
Sounds to me like you’re accusing Michael Payton of being a likely murderer.
August 10, 2012 at 10:59 pm |
You aren’t really following this closely, eh? There are people on that network who keep their personal information private for a very good reason. Having it out, at all, particularly in the control of someone who has demonstrated a willingness to share parts of it,who has a grudge against them, is dangerous.
August 10, 2012 at 11:48 am |
Thunderf00t, I distanced myself from your channel for the duration of this “event”. I’ll happily re-subscribe to you after these events have blown over, but right now, the Atheist community just doesn’t need this sort of garbage, and as I don’t subscribe to PZ’s channel anyways, I didn’t want to see the YouTube scuffle that would inevitably happen from this.
You haven’t lost us, some of us, like me, will be back when you can freely educate and entertain without this sort of BS hanging over the information like a cloud of VX gas, turning everything it touches to lethal toxicity.
August 10, 2012 at 2:55 pm |
This is exactly the sort of thing the atheist community needs as long what power structure it has is run by an echo chamber supporting hypocrites like PZ.
August 10, 2012 at 11:53 am |
Will this become similar to the climategate email leak?
August 10, 2012 at 6:28 pm |
You mean, a blatant attempt to discredit an organization by stealing their information?
Perish the thought.
Or are you referring to the repeated inquiries that have found little evidence of wrongdoing (save for ignoring FOI requiests)?
August 10, 2012 at 7:02 pm |
Both actually.
Note: I do not support FTB, I also do not support this circus.
August 10, 2012 at 7:49 pm |
Well, the parallels aren’t fantastic – scale aside, there’s little dispute as to who did what precisely, so far as I can tell… It seems mostly like it’s an argument about ethics.
Within the community / communities, probably of similar significance. Beyond that? Nobody will give a damn.
August 10, 2012 at 11:54 am |
Cool dragging it out even more. Meanwhile where is the next part of the Hadron Collider series? Or Why do people laugh at Creationists? Stop playing in the mud, be better than them.
August 10, 2012 at 12:03 pm |
yup, i know, and Im deeply sorry for it. The videos are on the cutting board waiting to be finished, and I too find this tedious.
Regrettably, its also kinda necessary housekeeping, as if the people conspiring to have me (or others) ‘drummed out of the community’ succeed, that would presumably mean no more videos at all! Further its almost an ethical obligation to blow the whistle on behavior like this.
August 10, 2012 at 2:27 pm |
“Necessary housekeeping?” It looks to me like you’re giving them a pretty solid justification for portraying you as someone deserving of pariah status.
You’re “blowing the whistle” on people emailing each other to say that they’re pissed off about being insulted? … Okay then.
August 10, 2012 at 2:29 pm |
To clarify, I’m not trying to say that you *should* be a pariah, but publishing emails that are intended to remain private is a rather skeevy thing to do.
August 12, 2012 at 12:06 pm
If FtB bloggers lie about TF and TF can prove this by publishing some e-mails (after removing personal details) I see no problem with this. Do you?
August 12, 2012 at 12:11 pm
FtB bloggers are completely irrelevant to the issue at hand. TF is making himself look like a giant ass by surreptitiously gaining access to and subsequently sharing confidential messages. I do see a problem with this.
August 12, 2012 at 2:05 pm
You seriously mean that if you were the victim of slander and lies you would refrain from posting semi-private e-mails in your possession for your defense? FtB behaved like children when they booted TF and if he wants to kick their butts (metaphorically speaking) in retaliation (ie also behave like child) then that’s fine by me. This is a big mess but in the end it’s a good thing FtB is exposed for the hypocrites they are.
August 12, 2012 at 3:45 pm
You’re not real clear on the definitions of words, are you?
August 10, 2012 at 2:56 pm |
“Regrettably, its also kinda necessary housekeeping”
Or not.
You seem to have lost your perspective, and really should back off a bit. You’re coming across as a classic obsessed Usenet bitter boy.
Seriously, dude, if FTB is as bad as you say, they’ll implode all on their own. Meanwhile, you can be making kick-ass videos for the rest of us to enjoy.
August 11, 2012 at 7:27 am |
“if FTB is as bad as you say, they’ll implode all on their own”
Oh yeah? How come the Catholic Church hasn’t imploded on their own? Meanwhile, I’m sure Thunderf00t will go back to making your blue pills soon. Just be patient.
August 11, 2012 at 9:49 am
A new bit of hyberbolic bullcrap – FtBs now compared to the Catholic Church! Nice one you have hit a new level of stupidity.
September 3, 2012 at 7:44 am
“A new bit of hyberbolic bullcrap – FtBs now compared to the Catholic Church! Nice one you have hit a new level of stupidity.”
How have I “compared” the two? Let’s see if you correctly comprehended my argument.
August 10, 2012 at 5:02 pm |
Thunderfoot, most intelligent people aren’t going to follow the clan of PZ and his sheep. Honestly, these posts may in the long run do more damage to your reputation. I am sticking around because I admire you and have learned a lot for you, but I think most of us are ready to just forget about FreeDramaBlogs and their bullshit.
August 10, 2012 at 6:30 pm |
Couldn’t you just put it down and walk away? I mean, if you’re insulted, sure – it’s a pain in the ass. But if what you have to say has merit, surely any effort to “drum you out of the community” will simply fail?
If you just ignore them and walk away, they won’t have any reason to bother you further. Let it go.
August 11, 2012 at 7:32 am |
“If you just ignore them and walk away, they won’t have any reason to bother you further.”
Somehow I doubt any of you would be saying this kind of stuff if it were Venomfangx or William Lane Craig doing what FTB is doing. You’d be egging Thunderf00t on to crush them. Isn’t that how he got his thousands of subscribers in the first place?
August 15, 2012 at 9:42 am
Well… no. The comparison is not good.
There are some fights not worth having. This is one. It’s at cross-purposes. This doesn’t further Tf00t’s message or enlighten anyone. It just embroils him in a punch-up, and an ugly one.
Even if this specific brawl was with William Lane Craig, it would be a poor one to engage in. This is not a dispute of rhetorical devices and intellectual finesse – it’s an ugly dispute over who did what, and who is the bigger arsehole. No matter who the other side of this is, it’s a fool’s game to engage. Stick to the concepts that you wish to discuss, and don’t get mired in a personal mudslinging contest.
August 15, 2012 at 9:59 am
Goodkind:
I wonder if you would say that, were it your character, integrity, and reputation “on the line”, eh?
Such things are not 50:50.
In horse-training, the motto is one bad experience takes ten good experiences to balance out.
It is as such with personal reputation, if not: more so.
Slimed by PZ Lyars and his horde of acolyte cellar-dwelling dungeons-and-dragons wizards?
That’s once shy.
It takes ten times the effort to even rectify these criminal slanders, let alone rise above them.
Anyone who has been in professional adult positions that depend upon personal integrity & trust know this rule inside-out.
Goodkind. Would you seriously let a libel lie?
August 15, 2012 at 10:11 am
Michael,
I might agree, if there were anything to be gained for Tf00t in defending his honour. However, I don’t believe that there is anything to be salvaged here – those that support PZ will agree with him and are unlikely to be swayed, already believing Tf00t to be a monster. Tf00t’s supporters, likewise, will already believe that PZ is a monster and are unlikely to be swayed by his arguments.
What, exactly, can be achieved here? An apology? It seems unlikely – there’s very little that can be done about mudslinging on the internet, and both sides seem thoroughly entrenched.
No, I don’t agree. If it were my reputation, I would be outraged and furious, but I think I would also see that there’s no harm in putting it down and walking away. As I said earlier – if Tf00t is right and what he says has merit then that should be readily apparent. He doesn’t need to get his nose bloodied in a brawl with no clear resolution. Do PZ and the FtB group win if Tf00t walks away? I don’t think so – they’ve done just about all they can already.
Fighting purely for the sake of pride is not an argument in one’s favour. Knowing when to fight demonstrates prudence. Take this fervour and turn it on William Lane Craig, or some other deserving individual.
August 15, 2012 at 10:46 am
I (seriously) thank you for your adult and measured response.
That is where we fundamentally differ.
The FfTB acolytes have demonstrated, time and time again, (in a documented series of vexatious and potentially criminal activities), that they are capable of far worse, and have done so, in spades.
These FTBuggers are truly vicious psychopathic criminal bastards, no doubt about it.
Such as: (not exhaustive by any means)
* Attempting to threaten a US Soldier with explicit violent intent.
* Deliberately causing a rebound of PSTD in said soldier, in order to blackmail him into staying quiet about FfTB crimes.
* Actively stalking robust critics, in order to get them sacked, if not cause further permanent mayhem in their lives.
* Issuing ludicrously unsupported & clearly vexatious ‘copyright infringement’ take-down notices against anyone who reveals the vacuuity of the FfTB Anti-Feminist Dogma issued by the fiat of the most holey PZ Lyers (PBUH)
And so-on.
No, Goodkind.
These cunts are exactly like Scientologists.
They will hound TF as “fair game” until he is ground into the legal dirt.
TF has no option but to fight against their toxic dogma until the end.
August 15, 2012 at 11:06 am
I disagree, but I don’t think I can offer any insight that will change your mind. As you said, I think we differ fundamentally on some level.
I don’t think conflict benefits either party, and neither will back down. The simplest resolution is to walk away and refuse to engage any further – you say, “fight against their toxic dogma until the end”, but what end? This cannot go to rest because there is no goal in sight.
Internal disputes will drive away new interest, and this one looks to me like it will just roll on and on so long as both sides have the knives out. Why not be the better man and bring it to a close?
August 15, 2012 at 11:16 am
Ah, you may have a vitally different goal to TF, or I.
We have long-term honour for integrity’s sake, you have short-term accommodation, for pacific reasons.
Is that a fair assessment?
August 15, 2012 at 11:34 am
Not exactly.
My opinion is that you have it in reverse – engaging in this fight is only about short-term pride. My thought is that in the long term, if this dispute is ditched now, it will be forgotten and none will be the wiser. All can depart from the matter, reputations intact. New readers/viewers can be attracted and will not be driven away by internal spats. Tf00t can return to his real interests and leave petty political arguments to others.
The longer this festers, the worse the damage. It’s an ugly mess for everyone concerned and I’m fairly confident that the FtB crowd would benefit from seeing the back of it as much as Tf00t would. They will see that and let it lie. If nobody is scratching the wound, it can heal quietly and all concerned will be better served.
I would not describe my solution as accommodation. I’m not suggesting that Tf00t concede to any of the FtB crowd’s accusations or swallow his pride. I’m suggesting that he refuses to engage any further on the matter. There can be no victory for him in this, as there cannot be for the FtB crowd. Nobody wins. Nobody regains honour. It’s a blot on the record, to the detriment of all invovled.
Even if the FtB crowd were to continue where Tf00t ceased engaging, who would look more virtuous? Nobody likes a bully. This isn’t a war, where not fighting means defeat and destruction. It’s an argument, where not reciprocating means the other is left spewing hot air into a void.
August 10, 2012 at 8:36 pm |
“that would presumably mean no more videos at all!”
You do know they can’t actually stop you from making videos, right? Nor have they been trying to. This “housekeeping” is, to put it mildly, unnecessary.
August 13, 2012 at 5:29 am |
Housekeeping, or, you know, viewmongering, as “science and education FTW” doesn’t quite cut it for the crowd you’ve picked up over the years.
August 10, 2012 at 11:56 am |
What many FTBers do in case of criticism looks like a Scientology fair game operation indeed. They don’t merely disagree, they want to destroy for disagreement. Not with arguments, but by attacking livelyhoods.
I do hope though that you got your hands on these mails when they were still intended for you (i.e. when you were able to sign on to the list when you weren’t blocked/forbidden from using it). Some accusers claim that you somehow hacked your way into it, which, despite all the Bullshit they come up with there, wouldn’t be the nicest thing to do.
If the only “security measure” would be that the address of the list is somehow a secret and their ability to delete subscriptions (it almost sounds as if its that what they are doing, reading between the lines) then.. well… it cannot be said that the people responsible to enforce privacy measures over there are all too bright or all too concerned…
August 10, 2012 at 11:59 am |
It is pretty clear he regained access. The Payton affair that he’s quoting emails about occurred well after he was booted.
And you don’t know anything about security, so what’s the point of speculation?
Even if they didn’t have top-notch security, that doesn’t excuse this huge ethical breach.
August 10, 2012 at 12:23 pm |
Why do I get the impression that by “… huge ethical breach”, you don’t mean trying to get someone fired for a tweet?
August 10, 2012 at 2:15 pm |
Doesn’t matter if it’s ethical or not – surely TF has massively put his foot in it (No pun intended) by admitting he accessed the email after being removed from the list. Even if they had pretty much no security that is illegal.
August 10, 2012 at 2:18 pm |
Would you think it were a huge ethical breach if someone outed politicians planning to character assassinate someone? Or if it were Scientologists deciding someone was “fair game”? For a more personal example, if you looked at your partner’s email or phone and discovered that they were cheating, should you ignore that information on the basis that you shouldn’t have been looking in the first place?
Breaching privacy is a concern, but it’s a lesser one and it is mitigated further by the fact that he’s revealing the ethical breaches of others. Also I didn’t see where he said how he got the emails. Do we know that they didn’t just fail to remove him from the list, or that someone still on it objects to this behavior and forwarded the emails to him? No disrespect to Thunderf00t but he doesn’t seem like a hacker.
August 10, 2012 at 2:40 pm |
The bloggers at FTB claim the list was hacked. And this claim comes from bloggers who were not directly involved with TF00t’s FTB experience, like Reed and Jones.
Your analogies are false. A group of people hanging out and talking about how much they dislike someone else is not unethical behavior. Stealing confidential information, risking outing trans people, this is unethical behavior.
I see no reason to trust thunderf00t with my real name or personal information, why on earth should people who write for a network he appears to despise do so?
August 10, 2012 at 3:00 pm
People who don’t know things about the internet and security love to say something was “hacked” when it merely accessed in a way they didn’t expect in a perfectly legal manner.
August 10, 2012 at 3:28 pm
@Kaylakaze I do know a few things about the internet and security and even total lack of protection is no legal defence when the information is private – and TF knew it was. I wouldn’t stand up for HB Gary but when their emails were leaked by them rather amusingly accidentally putting them on the internet with no security that did not make it legal.
The only defence in the UK would be that releasing the information was in the public interest. I doubt some bickering between two camps of atheist-sceptics would be seen as particularly earth shattering such that this was a relevant defence.
August 10, 2012 at 3:47 pm
Evidence of hacking: http://freethoughtblogs.com/lousycanuck/2012/08/10/what-thunderf00t-did-and-how/
Not looking good.
August 11, 2012 at 7:46 am
“The bloggers at FTB claim the list was hacked”
Based on their own evidence, they are full of shit.
“Less than ten minutes after he was booted from the mailing list he rejoined using the original auth ticket”
http://freethoughtblogs.com/lousycanuck/2012/08/10/what-thunderf00t-did-and-how/
If this information is accurate, TF used the a valid authentication ticket to get on-board a listserv. It’s a bit like giving your key to someone. Hacking would be akin to picking the lock, whether by brute force, some security exploit to gain access to admin account, maybe planting a virus on someone’s system. But that’s not the claim, the claim is he used the ticket he was given to gain access to a list which he was granted access to. There was no circumvention of security, security was in place and he was granted access.
There is additional information on login attempts and asking for password reminders, but again, not akin to picking the lock.
August 11, 2012 at 9:38 am
http://www.tanoro.com/blog/08102012-thunderf00t-has-turned-hack
Above blogger amended to say using an exploit – the terminology is pretty irrelevant to the shittyness of the action on his part.
August 11, 2012 at 10:34 am
“Above blogger amended to say using an exploit – the terminology is pretty irrelevant to the shittyness of the action on his part”
The terminology is pretty relevant, because it was the listserv maintainer that gave TF the auth ticket. The listserv maintainer didn’t revoke the invite, it’s the admin’s fault.
It’s patently simple, the auth ticket is like key, you give someone a key, you give them permission to access. Ask for the key back, you’re baring them access. You forget to ask for the key, it’s your own damned fault. The admin didn’t remove the key, simples.
It’s not a hack, nor an exploit. There was no root kit, there was no keylogging software, there was no brute force, there was no unauthorized access. The software didn’t have a flaw TF was aware of, nor was any flaw used to get back on the list. There was no user intervention causing a divide by zero error circumventing the add to list function, no circumvention of any kind. He was given access to the listserv by an authorized user by means of a ticket, and that same ticket was used to get back on the listserv after he was unsubscribed. He was, by definition, an authorized user.
You people are so delusional. Shitty, perhaps, but not hacking, nor exploiting, nor circumventing. The software worked EXACTLY as it was designed to, and let an authorized user onto the list. You are patently delusional.
August 11, 2012 at 7:46 pm
Ok so it was a shitty move – we are in agreement. The agreement on detail is no concern to me, if it gets pursued legally then we will find out. I’m happy to wait for that conclusion…
August 11, 2012 at 8:52 pm
“Ok so it was a shitty move – we are in agreement.”
Totally shitty. Just not illegal.
“The agreement on detail is no concern to me, if it gets pursued legally then we will find out. I’m happy to wait for that conclusion…”
As stated many times, many many times e-mailing someone has NO EXPECTATION OF PRIVACY. Without an express written agreement, there is NOTHING anyone can do, however TF can actually nail people on character assassination and libel since people like you are douchebags who are getting the facts wrong.
And yeah, if they talk to a lawyer, the FIRST thing (s)he’ll say is STFU.
August 11, 2012 at 10:45 pm
They have spoken to their legal representation – they did not say stfu – they said they have a case… Maybe you are not Judge Dredd afterall?
August 13, 2012 at 6:57 am
“They have spoken to their legal representation – they did not say stfu”
Unlikely. More likely they took the money and will issue TF a C&D letter.
“– they said they have a case… Maybe you are not Judge Dredd afterall?”
I don’t think “case” means what you think it means 😛
Not a criminal case as you’ve asserted. And the express authorization by an authorized user means no trespass. There are no damages. Maybe emotional distress as we have one tranny and one gay who would prefer to remain anonymous. But AFAIK no IRL names were released, so even this wouldn’t fly.
Well, perhaps you can cite law and legal precedent, to validate your position. Because e-mails like letters have no expectation of privacy once they reach their intended recipient.
So basically you concede this is not a CRIMINAL case. The lack of a STFU in a civil case would suggest a lack of intent to go to trial. I could hypothetically have a “case” if I asserted your comments gave me gas, just not a very good one.
August 10, 2012 at 8:27 pm |
Note that Thunderf00t never actually says that anyone from FTB tried to get Payton fired. He just structures the article to make people come to that conclusion while maintaining no responsibility for it.
August 10, 2012 at 12:02 pm |
aleph squared: Are you serious?
August 10, 2012 at 12:04 pm |
Yes. But without you being more precise, I can’t particularly comment on why.
August 10, 2012 at 12:12 pm |
Given the problems the FTB “leadership” had in simply setting up their website to function, it’s entirely possible they forgot to remove tf00t from the mailing list. They’re not the most competent lot at things that don’t involve cowardly whining
August 10, 2012 at 2:17 pm |
I don’t agree with you on much but I hope that is the case – anything else and he is in the shit. Getting so involved in an argument with PZ that he risks legal action seems bizarre. I don’t agree with TF on pretty much anything in his recent posts but I hope he is better than that.
August 16, 2012 at 3:16 pm |
I believe the official claim is that TF was removed from the mailing list, but that he was re-enlisted using the original invitation e-mail which immediately re-instated his access.
August 10, 2012 at 12:20 pm |
Ed Brayton = Maximilien Robespierre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reign_of_Terror
August 10, 2012 at 12:27 pm |
It seems that organised irreligion is not much different from organised religion…
August 10, 2012 at 1:16 pm |
*drums*
August 13, 2012 at 6:00 pm |
WIN.
August 10, 2012 at 12:31 pm |
Time for FTB to pull the plug on itself. A bit of inward looking and realising that some people get carried away in their hatred would be a first step. Hatred only damages the hater. Good work Thunderfoot, in all the years, I might not have always agreed with your methods but I’ve never doubted your integrity . Smaller people than you have also suffered at FTB hands and you speak for them.
August 10, 2012 at 12:36 pm |
It becomes clearer every day that FTB, certain youtube celebrities and similar ‘freethought’ enterprises of the ‘new atheism’ era are about ego-tripping and self-aggrandizement. Promotion of rational inquiry and humanist values are just tools to achieve them; side-effects at best. Petty status games of small-minded apes. Primates are disgusting, we are a hopeless lot indeed.
August 10, 2012 at 12:36 pm |
A Greg Laden troll response in 5, 4,…
August 10, 2012 at 12:39 pm |
I made a statement about a failure to protect sensitive data, and what could be a possible cause. I did so because I’m interested in such things myself.
I’m not making excuses for breaking weak (or any other) security, and I didn’t make any in my previous comment. Quite the opposite, actually.
I would like to see some data on how this alleged breach was actually executed, though – out of mere curiousity.
August 10, 2012 at 1:05 pm |
Yeah, it would be interesting to know more of specific how and when, rather than just rather paranoid innuendo.
Of course there’s one very obvious way this could have happened, after all “Three may keep a secret …”
Also it’s very weird to encounter such apparent faith in the power of email footers.
August 16, 2012 at 3:19 pm |
I believe it’s a Natalie Reed post, but I forget exactly who, anyway they included alleged logs to show that TF was removed from their mailing list, but apparently he simply re-enlisted using the original e-mail invitation.
August 10, 2012 at 12:43 pm |
FTB is a wasteland these days. (Girlyban: Please retweet and attack me for my personal opinions. Go ad hominem ad infinitum. You know you WANT to!!) The more “crazy” that gets documented, the better off for the sane. Surly Amy and her latest bit of hyperventilated pearl clutching over “fake” jewelry and descriptions of mundane t-shirt sloganeering as ‘hate speech’ is likely to make it’s way to Saturday Night Live mockificaton if we just help PROMOTE what the American Girlyban are saying themselves! Have you been Girlybanned yet? Enjoy.
August 10, 2012 at 12:45 pm |
Looks like the FreeThoughtBible assclowns truly, honestly, think their so-called movement is as riteous as god’s left testicle. A simple Google search on all these PZ FTB related issues shows a lean away from such a poisonous network. When did these wankers become self appointed experts on rights, human behaviour, sciences, feminism, etc? More like censorship, self promotion, ill tactics, vapid drivel and bearded clams. FTB – Fuck you!
August 11, 2012 at 4:34 am |
Did simple google searches, found nothing particularly righteous or, shit, any claims of expertise on human rights. Do you have an example? Like, even one?
August 10, 2012 at 1:04 pm |
The “Free Thought” Blogs comment section is highly moderated and patrolled so nothing can interfere with their group think circle-jerk. It reminds me of all those ID forums I used to visit when I first got interested in rationalism. Bunch of brain dead lunatics. But hear me out. I may have hit upon something.
PZ Myers needs to be checked for chemical poisoning. He seemed as near enough normal (as a militant atheist could be) before he started spending so much time around all those Skepchicks. I suspect his mental degradations (and possibly theirs as well!) are a result of long term volatile hydrocarbon exposure, a condition I became aware of watching a TV show on “huffing”. Check the Girlyban nail polish removers, and ferchrissakes, somebody send a forensics team to analyze those off-beat Girlyban hair dyes. Pretty sure Clairol doesn’t come in some of those colors. Most likely Chinese imports with a penchant for recycling industrial lead waste into “affordable American hair care products”. It’s just a theory, but besides the alternative of PZ actually being the original “elevator guy” and Skepchick extorting him, I think it fits about as well as any.
Enjoy.
August 12, 2012 at 10:16 pm |
“besides the alternative of PZ actually being the original “elevator guy” and Skepchick extorting him”
HA! Fuck me, that’s the funniest thing I’ve read in this whole debacle.
August 10, 2012 at 1:39 pm |
You won’t remember me by now, Thunderf00t, but I’m still watchin’, This work is more important than you’re given credit for. It shows that the concept of cognitive dissonance does not only interfere with a theist logic pattern. FTB and the drum brigade are effectively so sure they’re right that they’re unwilling to address the arguments. You won’t win with them, but the information presented here is a clear victory for anyone on the fence, and those are the only people arguments are meant to win over anyway. At its most basic level, your argument is “Look at your behavior FTB, this is inappropriate for free thinkers.” and their counter is “You’ve breached our privacy.” or earlier it was “Your language was not befitting of a blogger.” These things cannot beat each other, they’re separate issues. And you hardly have to combat the idea that sharing the body text of these e-mails is unethical.
Consider that you’re reporting evidence of their cutthroat tactics, and in that you’re taking on the role of a reporter, and it’s hardly unethical for a reporter to report on something that would discredit an organization. It’s an obligation. If they found out that you tried to get someone fired, or conspired with others to get someone fired, I’d demand they report that too. The base of free thought is allow people to speak their minds, and encouraging them to present evidence.
Conclusion, the only way you’ll become a pariah is if you continue to lend these people credibility by revisiting an argument you’ve won. ‘Til such a time when they come back with an argument of “Our behavior was justifiable because –” you can more or less move on now. Perhaps refer to the issue whenever FTB throws you another gem like this. Similar to your work in Why Do People Laugh At Creationists. You moved from one speaker to the next, and conveniently revisited speakers who threw you another gem. Do that. Don’t give morons more attention just because their circular, deflective logic isn’t derived from a God. It’s still circular, deflective logic.
August 10, 2012 at 1:40 pm |
Did you access a private listserv after being told you were no longer welcome to access that private listserv? It’s unclear from your post.
August 10, 2012 at 1:41 pm |
[…] The Freethoughtblogs network was recently informed that former Freethoughtblogs blogger thunderf00t has been forwarding private emails from the private FTB email list. He has not only been forwarding emails sent during the short time he was a blogger on this network — he used a security loophole to re-gain access to the email list shortly after he was fired from the network and blocked from the list, and has been accessing emails he never had any right to see. When this security breach was discovered and he was shut out again, he tried several times to re-access the private list. And he has already made the content of some of those emails public. […]
August 10, 2012 at 1:44 pm |
Greg’s threatening e-mail was not part of the mailing list and falls under the Justin’s policy that reserves the right to publish anything threats with identifying info. This was a threat and was part of the mailing list, so is quite different.
August 10, 2012 at 1:44 pm |
This wasn’t a threat, rather.
August 11, 2012 at 12:12 am |
The voice of the FTBorg.
August 11, 2012 at 12:21 am |
So you’re saying that the quoted e-mails amount to a threat? Please explain how.
August 11, 2012 at 9:27 am
— Greg Laden
If you don’t interpret that as a threat, then there is something very, very wrong with you.
Such as having been assimilated into the FfTBorg hive-mind.
August 11, 2012 at 11:03 am
You read my comment backward. My point was that that this situation was ethically different than Justin Griffith posting an e-mail from Greg Laden because, among other things, Greg was making threats and the e-mails Thunderf00t quotes weren’t.
August 11, 2012 at 11:30 am
I did NOT read your comment ‘backward’ – I read your request forward and answered it with factual, supportable, verifiable evidence!!
If anything, you read my response “backward”.
AceOffSeverns:
Me:
Answering your enquiry with absolute targeted precision.
1) Your “point”[1] was NOT that. Not in any way shape nor form. It was a rather feeble and leading question, not a point at all.
2) Your logical analogy falls flat at the point where your finalé floundered where your illogical conclusion rested upon: “among other things”.
Which, apart from being ungrammatical, is a logical fallacy.
I would have parted with a “I should have thought you coukd do better. Buck up old chap” soothing response, but in your case, I shall exempt myself from such an onerous duty.
Oh, and as a parting shot over the bows; why are you ashamed of your real identity?
________________
[1] So you’re saying that the quoted e-mails amount to a threat?
August 11, 2012 at 11:49 am
I don’t get how you are reading this the way you are. When I say “the quoted e-mails,” I mean the e-mails that were quoted right here in this post, where no one said they would kick anyone’s ass. If that was ambiguous, I clarified it.
The “among other things” means there are differences besides the presence/lack of threats, but those differences were not what I was talking about at the moment.
August 10, 2012 at 1:49 pm |
Keep pushing through Thunderf00t. You might need to buy some new boots in order to wade though all their bullshit. They are of the “hive mind” and they reinforce each others held views, even when they are wrong. And like a hive, they will all attack anyone perceived as a threat, no matter how irrational.
August 10, 2012 at 1:51 pm |
Wow. So you illegally hacked into a private channel, quote things out of context, and are spouting out conspiracy theories only worthy of UFOlogists and christian apologists. You have fallen really low Thunderf00t. It’s time to wake up and understand that you have become as bad as the christian apologists you used to focus on criticizing.
August 10, 2012 at 2:09 pm |
and of course, you have proof that t-f00t “hacked” that channel. Because being a proper skeptic and all, you’d NEVER make such an accusation sans objective proof, right?
August 10, 2012 at 2:37 pm |
Yeah, right — TFoot’s wild accusations of conspiracies to silence him forever are taken at face value, but when someone accuses him of hacking, suddenly there’s a burden of proof.
BTW, you little shits, Ed just confirmed that yes, TF was kicked off the private mailing list, and yes, he did indeed hack his way back into it, and yes, he kept on trying to get back in after the original loophole was closed. And yes, Ed has proven himself to be a more trustworthy source than either TF or his ignorant friend Welch.
August 10, 2012 at 3:20 pm |
The butthurt is strong in this one.The burden of proof is on the ones making the claim and that claim is TF00t hacked into their accounts. Exploiting a mistake or a loophole in not illegal nor is it hacking.
August 10, 2012 at 4:15 pm
So any imperfection in the FTB admins’ actions justifies violating an explicit promise to respect confidentiality? I guess you also think that having a less-then-perfect lock on your door makes home-invasion robberies excusable.
August 10, 2012 at 5:23 pm
” Exploiting a mistake or a loophole in not illegal”
Uh, yes, it is. It’s called “unauthorized access”, and it doesn’t matter if you “hack” or you find the fucking password laying around somewhere.
August 10, 2012 at 6:41 pm
nah bullshit. If you leave your door unlocked, that’s not justification for someone who doesn’t live there to walk in. The fact that the FTB administrators didn’t know how to configure a mailing list doesn’t make what tf00t did okay. It just made it easier.
August 13, 2012 at 4:40 pm
“If you leave your door unlocked, that’s not justification for someone who doesn’t live there to walk in. ”
Not 100% true at all. And this is a bad analogy. TF was given a key, a digital key. You give someone a key, that is permission to enter your home.
This is the digital world, and the ONLY way to establish whether the public has access or not to any resource is by entry.
“The fact that the FTB administrators didn’t know how to configure a mailing list doesn’t make what tf00t did okay. It just made it easier.”
Whether the behavior was MORAL or not is not the debate, whether it was LEGAL or not. The failure to remove TF’s key, the authorization code, His key still worked. The lack of local law enforcement or the FBI/CIA is a clear indicator of a lack of criminality.
August 10, 2012 at 3:24 pm |
Did Ed confirm/deny whether he did in fact say;
“I want to do whatever it takes to make sure that he is essentially drummed out of this movement, never invited to speak anywhere again and is forever a pariah.”
… because if he did, it’s not exactly a “wild accusation” now, is it?
August 10, 2012 at 5:36 pm
Um…the wild accusations predate the hacking incident for which TF now DESERVES to be shunned.
August 11, 2012 at 12:40 am
Ed’s comment postdates discovery of Thunderf00t’s abuse of the listserv. Ed confirms he said that, and worse, and he stands by it. Understandably, IMO.
August 10, 2012 at 2:19 pm |
Best to assume no illegal hacking for now – if needed a court would decide that. Of course even if he did hack into the emails it makes no difference to the validity of his arguments.
August 10, 2012 at 3:48 pm |
Well some evidence it was illegal now – http://freethoughtblogs.com/lousycanuck/2012/08/10/what-thunderf00t-did-and-how/
August 10, 2012 at 7:13 pm |
In what way does that make the hack illegal? Which law is being broken, and which clause?
It seems to me tf00t still had a valid invitation to join the listserv. The only question is whether he had received clear instruction that the invitation was withdrawn, and that he had received and read that instruction (note just sending an e-mail does not guarantee the e-mail was received). And if that was the case, I’m sure jason would have provided the evidence.
August 10, 2012 at 8:08 pm
Don’t be a disingenuous fool – I find it hard to believe you could seriously posit such a ridiculous argument. He was kicked off the FtBs site – he was posting video and post after post saying how much he hated PZ et al and how much they hated them.
He knew the invite was not valid in any way – so by exploiting it there is little doubt it was a dishonest move.
August 10, 2012 at 8:54 pm
I didn’t say it wasn’t dishonest.
*You* said there was evidence it was illegal. I asked you which law, which clause. That isn’t disingenuous.
I do think tf00t’s move was dishonest. I’m not convinced it was illegal. My question was perfectly reasonable and your inability to answer it speaks volumes.
Incidentally, accusing someone of breaking the law without being able to back up your claim is a bigger douche move than tf00t made.
August 10, 2012 at 9:16 pm
Your words -> “The only question is whether he had received clear instruction that the invitation was withdrawn, and that he had received and read that instruction”
Hence I call you a disingenuous fool – quite clearly unless he was unbelievably deluded he knew the invitation was withdrawn FFS.
Illegality is pretty obvious but it you really need it spelled out ->
http://www.tanoro.com/blog/08102012-thunderf00t-has-turned-hack
August 10, 2012 at 9:38 pm
You clearly have no understanding of how law works.
You may dismiss “little details” and think he should have just known, but those little details are absolutely crucial in determining whether a law has been broken or not.
Exactly how the invitation was rescinded would be critical. In cases of law, just knowing would not be enough.
Just knowing does not mean it wasn’t a douche move, or wasn’t dishonest. But that isn’t what you claimed. You claimed it was illegal.
The definition of “authorisation” is incredibly difficult to define, particularly in these types of cases. It is difficult enough to define where there are clear contractual boundaries (e.g. LVRC Holdings vs. Brekka, which is still not resolved, but at least one court is strongly in Tf00t’s favour regarding so-called zombie accounts; see link below); in this situation where the contractual boundaries and communications are far more blurred, the distinction between “illegal” and “dishonest” is very difficult to discern.
Which still singles you out as a douche for claiming illegality where it is far from clear.
http://blog.courion.com/access_assurance_blog/bid/30854/LVRC-Holdings-v-Brekka-Legal-Impact-of-Zombie-Accounts
August 10, 2012 at 9:55 pm
Hmm, in tearing oolon a new one above, I made a couple of typos. The “little details” quotes could be misread as me quoting oolon, that was not the intention. In fact those words should have been in quotes in the second usage (self-quoting) rather than the first.
Also, the definition of authorisation being difficult to define is a bit tautological. The word is difficult to define, not the definition.
Still, a new thought for you oolon. Using legal precedent to figure out whether something is legal or not, rather than just making a biased reading of statute. Huh, who would have thought that was a good idea.
August 10, 2012 at 11:04 pm
Well done in trying to win an aspect of the argument by posting lots of drivel. Little details may be useful for defence lawyers trying to get out of a charge true. But you post more crap to undermine yourself – the authorisation was plainly removed from the DB unless you are saying lousycanuck is lying. TF clearly re-added the authorisation without receiving a new invitation and *clearly knowing* he was not authorised to view the emails. Arguing over how many angels are dancing on TFs grave in this matter makes you look like a pedantic fool as well as a disingenuous one.
August 10, 2012 at 11:09 pm
Well done in trying to win an aspect of the argument by posting lots of drivel. Little details may be useful for defence lawyers trying to get out of a charge true. According to you saying the burglar who stole my TV did something ‘illegal’ is a terrible offence until I’ve studied all the relevant precedent. Maybe he was under the influence of the hypno-toad and will get off the charge in court.
Unfortunately you post more crap to undermine yourself – the authorisation was plainly removed from the DB unless you are saying lousycanuck is lying. TF clearly re-added the authorisation without receiving a new invitation and *clearly knowing* he was not authorised to view the emails. Arguing over how many angels are dancing on TFs grave in this matter makes you look like a pedantic fool as well as a disingenuous one. Enjoy your ‘new one’…
August 10, 2012 at 11:13 pm
Anonymous, did you even look at LVRC Holdings vs. Brekka? It’s not about angels dancing on a pin, it’s about legal precedent. And it is clear that *some* courts consider that authorised accounts such as the one tf00t had constitute authorisation until they are removed. This is subject to supreme court agreement (not likely to happen any time soon) but the fact that LVRC Holdings backed out shows that it certainly isn’t a straightforward result.
Your ignorance does not constitute legal precedent.
August 10, 2012 at 11:17 pm
Oh, lol, anonymous was oolon. OK that explains the ignorance, at any rate.
Oh and if that burglar that took your TV turned out to be a bailiff who had the right paperwork and legal title to take it, you can wail about how obviously stolen it was as much as you like, you’ll get laughed out of court every time.
Even the blog you linked to has seen that the claim didn’t hold water and is now backing down from it. I guess your cognitive dissonance won’t allow you to do that.
August 11, 2012 at 9:35 am
Posting too late at night Spence and used the wrong browser and accidentally posted the start of my reply when not logged in!
The blog I linked to said it was an exploit not a hack – you are not arguing about hack vs expoit you are arguing that some legal technicality ‘might’ get him off any charge therefore you cannot call it illegal, right? So total fail on your side once again as that blog says ->
“These are all technicalities worth mentioning, but the legal implications remain the same. There is a digital paper trail on both sides of this issue detailing that TF knew he was not permitted access to this service, but let himself in anyway. Whether or not he actually poked some code makes little difference.”
… No backing down on the legality there eh?
You don’t understand what cognitive dissonance means other than it makes you look clever… Or at least it would if you used it in the right context.
Legal precedent – I’ll add it at the end as you apparently cannot read too well – the account *was* removed therefore your precedent is worthless. Again unless you are saying lousycanuck was lying?
August 11, 2012 at 11:04 am
And again, you show your ignorance of law. Neither the word “exploit” nor “hack” appear in the statute, and this distinction is utterly irrelevant on a point of law. The issue is plain, whether he had authorisation to access the computer; the answer is that without question authorisation was granted, the difficult part is what counts as sufficient for that authorisation to be removed, and as can be seen from the court ruling I cited, the bar for this may be much higher than you realise.
And I use cognitive dissonance quite correctly. I have presented you clear evidence that your line of thinking is wrong, based on legal precedent. I have assumed you have read the evidence (perhaps this is an assumption too far on my part). The evidence clearly jars with your point of view, but rather than change your point of view (that the legality is far from clear cut) you rearrange your prior beliefs – such as your denunciation of lawyers and judges of getting people off on technicalities, which is a way of resolving the jarring evidence with your flawed belief system.
Of course, when you first declared tf00t’s actions to be illegal, this required some trust in the legal process; when it is pointed out that his actions may not be illegal, you shift the goal posts (using the word dishonest rather than illegal is a good example of this) and declare a lack of trust in the court system to minimise the conflict between your beliefs and the evidence to hand. It is exactly what Festinger was alluding to.
August 11, 2012 at 8:10 pm
Should just say TL;DR since it works for TF…
I know you really want to win this argument but you shouldn’t start pulling out bizarre statements like ‘belief system’ it makes you look a total idiot. Yes I am worshipping at the legal technicalities altar right now!
However I know why you made that daft assertion as you understand a little of what cognitive dissonance is from Wikipedia. As it will likely apply *if* you have strongly held beliefs – I am quite happy to maintain my *opinion* he illegally accessed the information until proven otherwise. Your pedantic details come no where near to proving it but you have quite amply proved you know the dictionary definition of cognitive dissonance but are no where near really understanding it.
August 11, 2012 at 9:23 pm
“cognitive dissonance”
That’s you. The legal evidence is overwhelming that you’re dead wrong. You know you are wrong, which is why you’re trying to argue that large companies are somehow protected without a written agreement from “trade secretes” when the subject at hand are personal e-mails with real names.
So long as it’s legal out out Norma Jean, it’s “legal” to out a tranny, which AFAIK didn’t actually happen.
You’re also delusional if any discussion taking place on the listserv was actually privileged information or continues trade secrets . They don’t make a fucking dime, no damages, case closed.
“Your pedantic details come no where near to proving it”
Shifting the burden of proof and cognitive dissonance. Technically you have the positive assertion that something illegal happened. You cite no law nor precedent. As such, you’re full of shit, this guy an myself are right. The only thing you’ve got is a guy who did something shitty.
August 11, 2012 at 10:55 pm
More verbose drivel – you and pinecone are surprisingly similar in style and substance, or lack thereof. In this post you just repeat ‘cognitive dissonance’ a few times with a load of crap around it.
I was wrong in thinking both of us are arguing without ‘knowing’ the truth just putting our opinions forward – you seemingly *know* the *truth* of it. Apparently the legal evidence is overwhelming… But a lot people on here apart from a Spence and a Pinecone disagree, even those on TFs side. The blogger I linked to disagrees. FtBs legal representation disagrees…. Call to authority maybe but where are those agreeing with your ‘overwhelming evidence’?
August 12, 2012 at 7:44 pm
oolon, I was hoping to educate you that just because you think it is wrong doesn’t make it illegal. And litigation is very difficult to follow, and you really don’t have a clue.
I provided evidence of how people who actually *do this thing for a living* interpret statute. All you’ve done is wail ignorant opinion and linked to a programmer who is as ignorant as you are with regard to legal process.
I love the defence “other people say so” – argumentum ad populum – typical of someone who has no clue, can’t back up what they say with evidence.
Your final comment shows you haven’t even understood a word I’ve said. What a waste of time you are.
August 13, 2012 at 7:20 am
“you and pinecone are surprisingly similar in style and substance, or lack thereof”
You’re being dishonest. I provided legal citations, and found the one state that actually has a law against the theft of IP, but it was never put to the test. Thus there is no precedent. That’s pretty substantial for yeah.
“Apparently the legal evidence is overwhelming”
Of criminal action? You concede this point. You see you stated they talked to a lawyer and the lawyer says FTF has a “case”. This would mean civil action, not criminal. A criminal action would be talking to the police, or the FBI/CIA.
“FtBs legal representation disagrees…. Call to authority maybe but where are those agreeing with your ‘overwhelming evidence’?”
This is what we call shifting the goalposts, a common tactic with creationists. Your assertion was CRIMINAL behavior, which again, you concede it’s not even a CRIMINAL case.
Perhaps you can tell us this “overwheliming evidence” constitutes. Breach of contract, emotional distress, physical damages. You’re already dead wrong on the criminality of the action, what are you asserting you’re right about?
Oh, and a good rule of thumb, a butthurt appeal to popularity and a lawyer saying “well I think you have a case” doesn’t really count, and the lack of a STFU kind of indicates no intent of going to trial.
August 11, 2012 at 11:52 am |
“Little details may be useful for defence lawyers trying to get out of a charge true. According to you saying the burglar who stole my TV did something ‘illegal’ is a terrible offence until I’ve studied all the relevant precedent. Maybe he was under the influence of the hypno-toad and will get off the charge in court. ”
Are you trying to be bat shit stupid? Are you on the toad?
Let’s try a more apt analogy.
You give your lover a key. The relationship goes sour, but you never ask for your key back, and they entered your pad. This isn’t breaking and entering or trespass because you gave them a key. You gave them the key, you didn’t ask for it back, that’s your problem.
Having the motherfucking KEY is a kind of an important detail.
There was no exploit, no hack, no circumvention of ANY kind. TF was given an invite to a listserv, and was removed from the list. He then used the same auth code to get back on the list. Now it could be called sly, sleazy, shitty, but not illegal.
August 11, 2012 at 12:06 pm
I’d hate to be your ex-partner.
If it were me, and it has been, I’d irrevocably destroy the key. (And have done)
To retain it would be an absolute breach of trust.
I truly despise anyone for whom legality trumps decency.
August 11, 2012 at 4:22 pm
@Michael Kingsford Gray
“I truly despise anyone for whom legality trumps decency.”
You’re being intellectually dishonest. I made NO claim of decency. However, it’s a question of legality. You give someone a key, they have access to whatever that key unlocks. You can ask for it back, but if you forget, you’re SOL.
“To retain it would be an absolute breach of trust.”
In your opinion, however, whether it’s a breach of trust is NOT an issue, but whether access was unauthorized and illegal. If false, this is libel and defamation of character.
Whether the act was moral or immoral is subjective. After all, to accept objective reality is a theistic claim, isn’t it 😛
August 11, 2012 at 8:17 pm
Bollocks now I’m agreeing with Michael Kingsford Gray FFS. Spence above would truly see me experiencing cognitive dissonance right now as I did not think it possible I’d agree with John Welch and Mike in one of TFs threads!
Unfortunately I’ve been sucked into boring discussions with Spence and Pinecone when you say it so well in a couple of sentences.
August 12, 2012 at 10:41 pm
No, oolon, your ignorance runs before you again. I have stated over and over again that I consider what tf00t did to be morally wrong.
However, claiming someone has committed an illegal act when they haven’t is also morally wrong. So both you and tf00t have committed ethical errors.
You have deliberately conflated these two points because you lack the intelligence necessary to make a distinction.
August 12, 2012 at 10:45 pm
Incidentally, oolon, honour killings regularly occur because people believe morals are more important than laws.
Sadly, “morally correct” is not a universal construct, but subjective. Which is why measuring behaviour by moral standards can be problematic; morals are subjective and everyone has different views of what is moral and what is not. The law, while not perfect, is not a moral code, but at least it is objective, and can be debated with evidence.
Which is presumably why you find it so difficult to debate law. Evidence isn’t really your thing, is it?
August 10, 2012 at 4:04 pm |
No, but it’d make him unethical and sleazy, and that certainly gives me doubts that he’s been an honest actor in this whingefest.
August 10, 2012 at 2:05 pm |
Given how readily PeeZus, Ophelia and others on FTB happily, HAPPILY post other people’s emails when they find it convenient, their shock and dismay over thunderfoot doing the same is laughably, hysterically hypocritical.
They should be mocked to the heavens for their whining.
August 10, 2012 at 2:22 pm |
They do bad stuff so they are bad but when we do it’s ok because they do it too. Great argument there – I think the more succinct aphorism is ‘two wrongs do not make a right’.
August 10, 2012 at 3:19 pm |
I think if you take the time to actually read the comments you reply to, you would see that John was pointing out a hilarious hypocrisy, not justifying it.
Also, this is a non-issue unless he came by the emails illegally.
August 10, 2012 at 3:49 pm |
How is it hypocrisy to reveal emails sent to you and you have a right to reveal and then complain when someone illegally accesses your emails? See my links to lousycanucks description of the hack – and although trivial it was a hack if what he says is true.
August 11, 2012 at 4:25 pm
“How is it hypocrisy to reveal emails sent to you and you have a right to reveal”
You’re asserting the right to privacy that simply doesn’t exist with e-mails. As cited before, one doesn’t have the reasonable expectation of privacy with e-mails.
“See my links to lousycanucks description of the hack – and although trivial it was a hack if what he says is true.”
It wasn’t a hack, nor an exploit, nor circumvention of any kind. TF got a legit invite with an auth code. He used that legit code to get on the mail server. They didn’t want him on the mail server, they should have revoked the code.
August 10, 2012 at 6:38 pm |
point missed. What Tf00t did was wrong.
The fact that anyone out of the FC5 is bitching about the publication of “private” emails is hilarious. If they want to bitch about tf00t’s actions with regard to getting back on the mailing list, I’m in complete agreement.
But when you make a habit of delightfully publishing other people’s ‘private’ emails whenever you find it convenient, then please, DO shut up when it happens to you. Or, stop publishing other people’s email. Really.
August 13, 2012 at 6:22 pm |
What John said.
You lose the right to credibly protest “two wrongs don’t make a right” when the “wrong” in question is something you and yours have been doing with no apparent hesitation or remorse.. but now someone has done it to you.
The applicable saying here is, “What’s sauce for the goose…”
August 10, 2012 at 2:07 pm |
thunderf00t, why can´t you just let it go ? It is clear that you and the FTB community will not bury the hatchet anytime soon – what are you trying to accomplish by doing stuff like this ?
You think you have been treated unfairly and you have made that very clear – those that agree or disagree with you over this matter will not change their minds by you publishing confidential emails.
Please, let it go.
August 10, 2012 at 2:11 pm |
because exposing these lackwits as the bullying poltroons they really are *is* doing a service. “Just let them get away with it” isn’t something the “community” would accept as a method of dealing with Ken Ham et al, but when it’s YOUR ox getting gored, oh then it’s so terribly different.
If “protecting the group” is now a priority, then the group needs to be dismantled, and salt sown where it once stood.
August 10, 2012 at 2:26 pm |
John C Welch like Scipio Africanus defeating the evil PZ Hannibal and his horde.
August 10, 2012 at 2:28 pm |
“because exposing these lackwits as the bullying poltroons they really are *is* doing a service.”
– thunderf00t has made it very clear that he thinks that, everyone who follows FTB and / or thunderf00ts channel knows his opinions on this issue. No one who has chosen a side or is still sitting on the fence is going to change his mind by thunderf00t hacking into a private mailing list.
“If “protecting the group” is now a priority, then the group needs to be dismantled, and salt sown where it once stood.”
– How is this supposed to work in practice ? We´ll keep fighting until every single lurker is so annoyed and / or disgusted that we can start over fresh ?
August 10, 2012 at 6:36 pm |
“protecting the group” is what leads to things like Scientology’s behavior against critics. It happens when the group as a thing unto itself becomes more important than the actions or purpose of the group. There’s nothing about FTB that is unique. It’s a website with blogs. If that site went down tomorrow, the people blogging there could still blog, just elsewhere. But at this point, the FTB FC5 are far more, FAR more concerned with defending FTB than anything else.
That’s how you get all kinds of bad behavior, from the low-level attacks by FTB against any and all critics to the really evil shit pulled by Scientology and the Catholic Church. Clearly the degree of the actions in those three examples are not even remotely the same, but the motivation, “The group must be protected at all costs” is not different at all.
Being too involved with any group leads to that kind of thinking, and it’s one reason why I agree with George Carlin about groups. People are awesome, groups, not so much.
August 10, 2012 at 2:09 pm |
Yowzers. You don’t see an email as a document. Your pathetic rationalizing shows as much as your vile actions.
But thanks for confirming the evidence presented at ftb with this post.
August 10, 2012 at 2:12 pm |
Of course, when PeeZus, ophelia, et al do this, i’m sure you’re right there scolding them as well.
August 10, 2012 at 2:30 pm |
Again completely crappy reasoning – you cannot point out the splinter in TF’s eye when there is a plank in FtBs – according to your bent logic. Just call it as it is John – pretty poor judgement on TFs side – I’d have respect for you and listen when you criticise FtBs then. However it is all too easy to dismiss you as a crank when you are an inveterate apologist for anything that paints FtBs in a bad light no matter how low.
August 10, 2012 at 6:32 pm |
I’m not excusing T-f00t’s behavior in the least. What he did was wrong. However, the fact that the FC5 are bent out of shape about ‘private’ emails being released when they delight in doing the same any time it suits them is hypocritical, to say the least.
If they really think it’s that bad, then they’d not do it themselves, ever.
August 10, 2012 at 2:18 pm |
Doc dropping commonly refers to releasing someones personal information, not things they say in emails.
Also;
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/03/28/i-always-aim-to-misbehave/
Heh.
August 10, 2012 at 2:13 pm |
The bullshit that happens on the FTB back channel is extremely annoying sometimes (sometimes it is perfectly fine and interesting discussion). It is one of the reasons that compelled me to tell Ed and PZ that I was resigning from FTB. That and other things were too distracting and too draining.
However, when I joined FTB originally I, as did everyone else including Thunderf00t, agreed to keep the contents of the back-channel confidential. I don’t know how legally binding any such promises were, but ethically and a simple matter of honor, if you will, one should respect that.
On the other hand, one could argue that FTB treated Thunderf00t rather badly and whatever stupid little spiteful things Thunderf00t invents to annoy FTB are part of the game.
Regarding me “threatening people on FTB and stalking people elsewhere. Like tracking people down in real life and trying to get them fired (Abbie Smith of the blog ERV) etc etc. ” you have that wrong. First, my “threat” against Justin Griffiths was very clearly a rhetorical phrasing stated in anger, anger well justified because I had expended considerable energy previously in supporting and helping Justin in his causes, and the moment he needed to reciprocate he stabbed me and others in the back. I accused him of acting like a toddler in a parking lot, and that for some reason mad him throw a fit and what you saw on the surface was that.
Regarding Abbie Smith, she personally and via her proxies residing in the comment section of her Scienceblogs.com blog (who now apparently reside here, on this blog) had made specific libelous accusations and otherwise harassed fellow graduate students, undergraduate students, and various academics. A pattern had started to emerge in which individuals that I was seen to associated (in a bloggy sense) with on the internet were targeted by Abbie Smith and her commenters. Such things happen on the internet and really are off no consequence, but having ti come from elsewhere on Scienceblogs.com, which very clearly prohibits that behavior, was a kind off institutional endorsement. For that reason I asked Scienceblogs.com to have those threads cleaned up or removed, or something, and they went to Abbie and asked her to take care of that. Another month or two went by and she did nothing, so I asked again and Scienceblogs.com tried again but were apparently more insistent and she cleaned up her act.
In the mean time, I sent a letter to the head of her department indicating that they had a student who as damaging her own reputation as well as theirs, suggesting that they do their jobs as mentors and look into this. I CC’d it to the higher authority at that University as a matter of standard procedure. Within a very short time I heard rumors from remote places on the internet with Abbie Smith connections that this letter (an email) had been sent. Something very unprofessional had happened. Abbie, through her proxies, started to threaten me with release of the fact that I had written this letter. That was a great irony because my sending that letter was entirely appropriate and there was absolutely nothing whatsoever wrong with sending it.
After hearing that it was being sent around (I was told by some guy in Australia that he had a copy of the letter) I contacted the Provost and suggested them that they look into this, and they told me that the University Council was being informed. Having said that, I doubt very much that anything will (or should) come of that.
I was not stalking Abbie, to suggest this is absurd, offensive, and frankly, stupid. I was not trying to get Abbie fired, I was trying to put pressure on for her to start behaving in a professional and collegiate manner both as a blogger on Scienceblogs.com and as a scientist. This seems to have worked for the most part.
Thunderf00t, I think you have some very valid complaints about FTB. But they are embedded in a sea of unmitigated bullshit and uncritical babbling. I wonder if you know which parts off your complaints are valid or if you are really as clueless as you appear to be.
August 10, 2012 at 2:38 pm |
Laden.
Point 1: whatever you intended your missive to Justin Griffith to be, you’ve forgotten one of the primary points of your particular fainting couch culture: intent isn’t magic. You threatened JG with violence, and used phrases that could be potentially triggering to military personnel. Squirm as much you like; it changes nothing. End of.
Point 2: well, the fact that Abbie might have gotten fired didn’t deter you, did it? And how strange it is – for all your blather about social justice and empathy and decency towards the most oppressed minorities out there, you launched a vindictive and potentially damaging campaign against someone who does important work in HIV/AIDS – a disease to which the poorest and most disenfranchised people in the world are at great risk.
I can’t even bring myself to insult you, you are that much of a nothing. Your words and deeds stand on their own merits in lieu of invective towards you.
August 10, 2012 at 4:31 pm |
Hey I hate Laden too, but Abbie Smith can’t be ‘fired’ because she doesn;t have a job. She’s a federal-grant-(not hers)-supported graduate student.
I guess she could get expelled.
But nobody seems to have tried to make that happen either.
August 10, 2012 at 2:40 pm |
Greg,
I don’t know whether you’re deliberately lying, engaging in a little historical revisionism, or whether you actually believe the stuff you’re writing (in which case, I suggest you put your analyst on danger money *right now*).
So you’re now saying you “resigned” from FTB? Seriously? That’s not how Brayton put it in his post saying you and TFT were leaving. Or is this another case of secret back channel agreements?
(Incidentally, I find it odd that a group of supposed skeptics participating in a group of blogs would find it necessary to swear each other to secrecy regarding behind-the-scenes discussions, beyond personal details, of course. It sounds more like a secret society (Scientology, anyone) than anything else).
August 10, 2012 at 2:43 pm |
Sorry, forgot to put my name to that last comment.
August 10, 2012 at 2:43 pm |
I’m sure there will be a bunch of screaming nutters on here replying soon – but in danger of being drowned out what part of Ed Braytons post about you being removed from FtBs aligns with ‘I resigned’?
http://freethoughtblogs.com/dispatches/2012/07/01/major-changes-at-freethought-blogs/
Maybe you pulled the trigger first and said the magic words ‘I resign’ but it is clear you were to be kicked off? Or am I missing something?
Statements like that seem to particularly abrade the sanity of the nuttier section of the commenters here.
August 10, 2012 at 3:03 pm |
So you’re admitting that TF knowingly agreed to a policy of confidentiality, and knowingly broke his agreement; and then you kinda sorta seem to be justifying it by saying it’s “part of the game?” Since when?
I used to respect you, but WTF is your problem now? Are you on PCP?
August 10, 2012 at 4:09 pm |
Maybe TF is on pcp- it’d explain a lot.
August 10, 2012 at 3:06 pm |
Greg Laden: “First, my “threat” against Justin Griffiths was very clearly a rhetorical phrasing stated in anger”
No, Greg, it isn’t “retorical phrasing”, especially when given the extremely low threshold of what constitutes a “threat” according to FfTB leaders. Go ask Ophelia Benson if it sounds like a threat.
Actually don’t, because she’s such a hypocritical liar she’d defend you.
August 10, 2012 at 3:45 pm |
“I was not trying to get Abbie fired, I was trying to put pressure on for her to start behaving in a professional and collegiate manner both as a blogger on Scienceblogs.com and as a scientist.”
Sounds like blackmail to me. If you are the arbiter of what is professional and collegiate, people should probably do the polar opposite of what you think is professional and collegiate.
August 10, 2012 at 6:30 pm |
“I’ll kick your ass” Greg. That’s not rhetorical phrasing. That’s a direct statement of your intent to try to kick his ass. Just because it didn’t work out the way you planned, i.e. bully justin into doing what you wanted doesn’t suddenly change what you did. Playing PTSD games and threatening to beat someone up is bullshit.
Also, as Abbie pointed out, getting the information you did is not something you just did by reading a facebook profile. Unless you can show she, at some point, GAVE you that information, you had to expend time to find them out. That, old boy, is *stalking* right there. You spent time to learn personal details about someone so you could fuck with them.
“lying sack of shit” comes to mind, but unlike you, a sack of shit can be useful if you’re a farmer or a gardener, or in need of cheep fuel. You have yet to rise to even that level.
You sent a letter to her boss trying to get them to force her to play nice, and now you’re all butthurt that they showed it to her? What fucking fantasy land do you live in. That wasn’t unprofessional you assbag, it was how things work: when someone accuses you of something, you’re allowed to see the specific accusation. It’s kind of part of the Constitution. Most of us think it’s important.
You also accused her bosses of “being in on it” and accused her of running ERV from University resources, something you provided no proof of. Christ, but you’re a jackanape.
Really? So Abbie gave you all the information you used to contact her boss then? because that’s the only way your actions aren’t stalking. it’s not like you could reasonably assume she’d want you to know such things. Also, for you to cry about “professional” behavior is so hypocritical that there aren’t enough letters in the word “hypocritical” to describe how hypocritical you’re being.
Tell me, exactly how “professional” were you when you threatened justin, or said any of the other things you’ve said to him? That’s an interesting definition of “professional” you have there.
August 12, 2012 at 1:44 am |
Greg Laden writes:
Regarding Abbie Smith, she personally and via her proxies residing in the comment section of her Scienceblogs.com blog (who now apparently reside here, on this blog) had made specific libelous accusations and otherwise harassed fellow graduate students, undergraduate students, and various academics. A pattern had started to emerge in which individuals that I was seen to associated (in a bloggy sense) with on the internet were targeted by Abbie Smith and her commenters. Such things happen on the internet and really are off no consequence, but having ti come from elsewhere on Scienceblogs.com, which very clearly prohibits that behavior, was a kind off institutional endorsement. For that reason I asked Scienceblogs.com to have those threads cleaned up or removed, or something, and they went to Abbie and asked her to take care of that. Another month or two went by and she did nothing, so I asked again and Scienceblogs.com tried again but were apparently more insistent and she cleaned up her act.
In the mean time, I sent a letter to the head of her department indicating that they had a student who as damaging her own reputation as well as theirs, suggesting that they do their jobs as mentors and look into this. I CC’d it to the higher authority at that University as a matter of standard procedure. Within a very short time I heard rumors from remote places on the internet with Abbie Smith connections that this letter (an email) had been sent. Something very unprofessional had happened. Abbie, through her proxies, started to threaten me with release of the fact that I had written this letter. That was a great irony because my sending that letter was entirely appropriate and there was absolutely nothing whatsoever wrong with sending it.
If this is what you did, that seems to me to go *way* beyond any ethical issues of Thunderfoot’s actions. As far as I’m concerned, communications on a private mailing list are only as good as the security on it. I have serious doubts there are any laws in the US protecting such communications, and putting it in terms of ethics rather than legality, people spy on their enemies all the time. I’d fully expect people who don’t like me to get as much intel as they can if I don’t take sufficient effort to hide things. Of course, I do expect that people will refrain from more threatening actions, like doc dropping, as I would refrain from doing to them.
Now in terms of going after somebody’s job, as you’ve done, I suppose it’s legal, though it could certainly get you sued, if somebody was actually fired or refused a job over it. Nonetheless, it crosses a line. Unless somebody is going after you *via their job* and using their institutional reputation as leverage against you, then I really think it’s best to keep private battles private. Believe me, there are several toxic academics I’ve had battles with in my dealings on the Internet, and I’ve refrained from such cheap “go to their department/diversity board/mommy” actions. Again, it really isn’t their institution’s business unless they’re using their institutional power or name as part of their battle strategy. And if you really did get somebody fired from their job over a fucking private Internet battle, yeah, you might “win”, but what kind of shit would *you* be?
August 10, 2012 at 2:16 pm |
Sorry about the typos; Consider them evidence of my disdain for this blog and the discussion happening here. #notworththeeffort
August 10, 2012 at 3:43 pm |
You just wrote a seven hundred word comment on said blog. #NotWorthTheEffort?
August 10, 2012 at 7:21 pm |
Of course, chasing down personal details and letter writing campaigns to get people fired (or expelled or whatever chascdickerson) is WELL worth the effort. Congratulations on being a lower form of life than realtors and lawyers.
August 10, 2012 at 2:23 pm |
Indeed. So far the hacking part is all allegation, no evidence. Jones had the decency to indicate that it’s merely allegations so far, but Greta Christina is already pushing it as a fact. It may very well be the case, but given what has come out of many FTB blogs during the last year, I’m done with giving them the benefit of a doubt. They should show the goddamn logs. But instead it’s their usual game of repeating claims over and over again.
The skeptical/atheist community has become a joke. A bunch of mammals throwing shit at each other. If it is this what FTB has set as one of their nebulous goals, they have succeeded big time.
August 10, 2012 at 2:32 pm |
The fact that he has e-mails from after he was kicked out is not evidence?
August 10, 2012 at 2:46 pm |
So you have evidence as to how he got them? C’mon, then, let’s see it.
August 10, 2012 at 7:40 pm |
See here for all the details. http://freethoughtblogs.com/lousycanuck/2012/08/10/what-thunderf00t-did-and-how/
August 10, 2012 at 3:12 pm |
John Welch theorised he was never removed from the list — that is probably the only scenario where he has not acted illegally as he could argue they were sent to him unsolicited. As it is a possibility until evidence to the contrary is presented then hyper-sceptically we have to say that although the evidence is strong it is not conclusive.
August 10, 2012 at 3:25 pm |
Or he has somebody on the mailing list allowing him access to those e-mails.
August 10, 2012 at 3:51 pm |
Evidence getting stronger however – lousycanucks post is pretty clearly illegal hacking.
August 10, 2012 at 6:19 pm |
it was more of a hypothesis based on the problems FTB had when they first started the site. It was also, as evidence has shown, an incorrect hypothesis.
August 10, 2012 at 2:25 pm |
FuckTardBullshit are now commencing operation internal witch-hunt, this should be interesting.
August 10, 2012 at 2:33 pm |
Thunderf00t, I once was a subscriber, but after all of this bickering I felt justified in leaving you behind. You seem (and this is only my perception) to have devolved into a 12 year old and I hope that you can, one day soon, grow up and move on. There is real work to do; slinging insults and whining is unproductive. When you go back to fighting the real fight, let me know…I’ll re-subscribe. Until then………
August 10, 2012 at 2:33 pm |
Oh great. Mobile wordpress doesn’t support posting nested comments. My last post was a response to JCW.
August 10, 2012 at 2:35 pm |
TF, there seems to be a lot of confusion in the comment section here, so I’ll ask again: Did you access the FTB listserv after you were told you were no longer welcome to access the FTB listserv? It’s a rather important point.
August 10, 2012 at 3:50 pm |
No it isn’t. The important question would be “did he do so illegally?” Whether he accessed it while unwelcome is inconsequential.
August 10, 2012 at 4:05 pm |
No, it’s not inconsequential. You’re making the mistake of thinking that if an act is legal then it must be okay.
August 11, 2012 at 8:17 am |
“it’s not inconsequential”
You think that way because you have no problem with FTB behaving like scientologists.
August 10, 2012 at 4:21 pm |
That may well be an important question if criminal charges are pursued, yes. In the case of civil charges, mine is a very important question indeed. From an ethical standpoint, it might be the most important question any asks in this thread.
August 10, 2012 at 2:36 pm |
What a pathetic little man you’ve become. So you hack into a private email list (and finding a security loophole is a form of hacking) to find out what people are saying about you behind your back, after you’ve been kicked from the group?
Doesn’t seem very sportsmanlike of you. In fact, it seems like an action that should be beneath any decent human being. You were kicked out. Shown the door. And now you fault people for what they say about you after you leave?
And you think you have any right to know any of this? You are a sad, sad person, Thunderf00t. I used to like your videos. I defended you when people said you lost that debate with Ray Comfort. I was a subscriber. But these latest actions just show us the real person you are.
Your fans may still glorify you, the way that misogynists and MRAs still glorify The Amazing Atheist. But the rest of us are seeing you for the pathetic cretin you truly are.
August 11, 2012 at 2:22 pm |
Its sad that you’re fine with FTB pathetic bickering and 6th grade school girl groupish mentality to make fun of people.
August 12, 2012 at 5:58 am |
Could you perhaps leave out the “school girl” part the next time you make comparisons? The idea of “6th grade school girl groupish mentality” sounds way too much like “women bitching”.
August 10, 2012 at 2:45 pm |
Members of FTB have revealed the contents of private emails in the past. Just sayin’. Ophelia Benson is the main culprit.
August 10, 2012 at 3:01 pm |
Good grief do you not see that justifying a wrong by saying ‘Yeah but the others do it too’ is no justification at all? Did your parents never tell you ‘two wrongs don’t make a right’?
People might take your criticisms seriously if you could just manage to call an opponent of FtBs out when they fuck up. But standing up for the other side just sticks in your craw and you lose any semblance to a rational person.
Did you notice Greg Laden stood up for your ‘side’ and said some of TFs criticism of FtBs is valid? Shame as I’ll never get to see a rational argument made by your side as you are too invested in the hyperbolic bullshit.
August 10, 2012 at 3:11 pm |
Until I see the evidence, I simply won’t believe anything FfTB says. They have a track record of lying and attacking people based on false pretences.
Your concern is noted…
August 10, 2012 at 3:27 pm |
oolon. It makes their outrage over the same thing happening to them seem a little faux I’m sure you’ll agree.
August 10, 2012 at 3:42 pm |
“Good grief do you not see that justifying a wrong by saying ‘Yeah but the others do it too’ is no justification at all? Did your parents never tell you ‘two wrongs don’t make a right’? ”
I didn’t see any massive outrage over the first wrong (when FTB does it). Why is that? Could it be because you’re on FTB’s side in all of this?
August 10, 2012 at 6:48 pm |
Actually, in this context “others do it too” actually means a great deal. Arguments have been made that these communications were covered in a cloak of confidentiality. If there have been repeated punctures of this cloak of confidentiality and the mandarins over FtB have done nothing about it, it pretty much goes to show that there was, in fact, no cloak of confidentiality at all. If they tried to sue him for breach of the duty of confidentiality, the fact that they suffered other, repeated, breaches to occur and did nothing would be Thurnderf00t’s Exhibit A.
August 10, 2012 at 3:53 pm |
Their sin was to release emails they had sent to them – not illegally obtained. TFs sin is to release illegally obtained emails if lousycanuck is correct — pretty hard for him to have faked those server logs. http://freethoughtblogs.com/lousycanuck/2012/08/10/what-thunderf00t-did-and-how/
Regardless of that – even if both had obtained emails illegally – you should be fricken criticising both! How is that hard to understand!
August 10, 2012 at 4:39 pm |
So it’s OK to publish emails sent to you without the sender’s consent? I don’t think so.
August 10, 2012 at 5:27 pm
What part of the three letter word sin do you not understand… You are so blinkered you don’t even see I said it was a ‘sin’.
August 10, 2012 at 9:30 pm
So is it a sin when PZ makes an “I get email…” post? I don’t think those senders gave consent.
August 10, 2012 at 3:55 pm |
Why do you continually repeat this? The fact that they regularly break the “confidentiality” of these emails shows that they are not confidential at all, which makes the “you breached our privacy. That’s only okay when we do it to you” argument completely void and pointless.
Nobody is saying two wrongs make a right or that Tfoot should have been snooping (if he was) around their emails.
August 10, 2012 at 3:02 pm |
“Private e-mails for which she was a lawful recipient of” is not the same as “private e-mails that she stole and was not a lawful recipient of.”
August 10, 2012 at 2:50 pm |
Could you misrepresent your actions any more thoroughly. This may shock you, as a white cis guy who thinks sexual harrasmebt is no big deal, but not everyone has the same level of protection as you. Natalie Reed’s life could be endangered from your carelessness, but do you care? Nope, too busy crying over getting sacked from FTB.
I always liked your ‘why do people laugh…’ videos, but you do not know what you are talking about in certain areas and you should not pretend to. It is your white, cis male privelege that allows you to callously dismiss what you have done as justified, and the sooner you realism it the better.
August 11, 2012 at 2:26 pm |
I love how this post is obviously full of anti-white anti-male hate speech. One more reason why feminism is a joke.
August 12, 2012 at 2:36 am |
I don’t see any evidence of Trina hating white males. She is pointing out that white males are less vulnerable than, say, transgender people, and that consequently they don’t register the potential dangers as fully as others might. How exactly is this hate-speech?
August 12, 2012 at 1:00 pm |
Hate speech is when you single out people based on their race or sexual orientation like Trina does. White women are also less vulnerable so why limiting the claim to men? Why mentioning race at all? I believe trannies are more vulnerable than any non-tranny regardless of race and gender.
August 12, 2012 at 10:11 pm |
I expect if someone said to Trina that she couldn’t understand an issue because she wasn’t a white male, she would throw a shit fit.
I don’t like the term hate-speech. I think a better way to phrase it is that Trina is guilty of gender-diminishing behavior she would object to if it was targeted at anyone other than a white male.
August 13, 2012 at 6:34 pm |
“It is your white, cis male privelege that allows you to callously dismiss what you have done as justified, and the sooner you realism it the better.” (Trina)
Repent, sinner, repent!
That you do not think you sin is final proof… of your sin!
You are Fallen! Bepaled, bepenised, beprivileged! REPENT!
(And buy some SkepChick stuff. Those airplane tickets aren’t free.)
August 10, 2012 at 2:53 pm |
I’ve usually only responded to other peoples posts on here but feel compelled to hope you did not hack into those emails. It really doesn’t matter what was being said about you or others in the back channel – if you did then that, in my opinion, is an epic fail and will do far more to damage you in the ‘community’ than anything FtBs could do.
I’ve said that despite not agreeing with you on this feminist/FtBs war I liked your other output and would carry on trying to enjoy the good stuff you create. If however even a small part of what Natalie Reed has to say is true – http://freethoughtblogs.com/nataliereed/2012/08/10/all-in/
– then you have made that extremely hard for me. A pathetic rift between you and PZ (And maybe some skepchicks) in no way justifies how you made Natalie feel, an apology is needed.
August 12, 2012 at 2:43 am |
Amen.
August 12, 2012 at 10:05 pm |
He should apologize to Natalie Reed for NOT releasing her information? As others have mentioned other members of FTB have posted email information, why isn’t Natalie Reed fearing for her life over that? Why aren’t you demandnig apologies over that?
I can’t believe anyone is being outraged over what FT *might* have (but didn’t) do when we have cast iron proof that FTB has attempted to ruin the livelihoods of at least 2 people that we know of.
As you repeatedly say, THE FACT FTB HAVE DONE TERRIBLE THINGS DOES NOT MAKE WHAT FT DID OKAY. I hope that’s the last time you have to hear that since I’ve seen countless people correct you on that in this thread.
HOWEVER, the fact FTB are in a communal shitstorm over a RELATIVELY minor infraction by FTB and NO ONE there is addressing the much more serious ethical issue of them trying to ruin the livelihoods of members of the skeptic/atheist community.
Sorry for the caps but I’m attempting to emphasize the points I predict will be glossed over with “FTB DOING WRONG DOESN’T MAKE WHAT FT DID OKAY”.
August 10, 2012 at 2:58 pm |
Well Thunderf00t, stranger.
Thanks a lot for single-handedly destroying my confidence in FTB.
I haven’t yet decided how much sarcasm, honesty or both to put into the above sentence.
Based on what you write, I feel you were justified in sharing the information with Payton. It is simply more right, more just to inform him of the plans against him, than it is right and just to keep a e-mail signature shrink-wrap agreement.
Still I wish we could put things back into Pandora’s box once in a while.
/ Per Edman
Swedish Skeptics
August 10, 2012 at 2:59 pm |
You know all those news stories of e-mails that have been hacked but that no one ever went to jail over? They didn’t go to jail because they didn’t admit in public that they hacked those e-mails and so were never caught. What you just admitted to-in public, no less-is a felony. What wee you thinking? You better hope no one over at FtB is feeling litigious over this.
August 10, 2012 at 3:05 pm |
Given the amount of legalese in the posts over there on this subject I fear that may be a baseless hope.
If no harm is done – i.e. Natalie Reeds real identity has not been released – then I’d like to see them drop it. But I cannot see that happening if they have a good case.
August 10, 2012 at 3:09 pm |
Sorry, can you quote the bit where TF admits to commiting a felony?
Ta.
August 10, 2012 at 3:56 pm |
He posts emails obtained after he was booted from the group – if as lousycanuck says he hacked into their servers to get those emails then yes he has effectively admitted to a felony.
August 10, 2012 at 6:17 pm |
Pretty much. It would be really difficult for Thunderf00t to show justification that he could reasonably think was allowed to access that mailing list. I’m unsure if FTB would want to spend the dosh to lawyer up, but from my reading of his actions, (and what Jason wrote is a fairly well-done analysis of the event), if they did, T-f00t would be in hurting status. At the very least, they could trivially get the providers of the email accounts he used to monitor the list to kill those accounts, and honestly, I’d not have any problem with that.
August 10, 2012 at 6:51 pm |
Bullshit. You say it’s a felony, fine. Then show me a statute that applies to what he did and defines it is a felony offense. Because, even after reading the explanation of what he did posted on FtB, I (and I actually have read lots of statutes on this subject in my professional live) can’t see where he did anything illegal. He was, if anything, an authorized user. He used a access utility that was freely given to him by FtB. They gave him–essentially–a password and he used it. Your faux outrage notwithstanding, it’s not a crime.
August 10, 2012 at 8:16 pm
Interestingly the FtB lot have posted that lawyers they have consulted disagree with you.
Lets say I gave you a key to my house and you were welcome to come over whenever. Later we fall out and it is made very clear publicly that you are not welcome – the fact I previously gave you a key and it is trivially easy to enter my house does not stop that being illegal. The means to access private information is not the consideration – the fact that he was not allowed to and he knew it is the crux of the matter.
That he then tries to revise history and it was all some heroic whistle blowing operation just rubs salt in the wound.
August 10, 2012 at 3:00 pm |
As an aside, I did not read your side of this conflict first. I first read Greta Christinas post, and then noticed that a large part of FTB were writing similar posts.
Call me crazy, but when a group of friends all point one way, I tend to look both ways before speaking out in support for anyone. Even when it hurts me socially, it would hurt me more, morally, if I did not.
/ Per
August 11, 2012 at 12:26 am |
So, on that basis. you fully analyse all Scientology group-think campaigns against heretics, and give both sides the benefit of the doubt?
What a waste of time if you do.
August 10, 2012 at 3:04 pm |
Hacking into a private email server and making public/forwarding that information gleaned illegally is *not* the same as releasing emails sent to you.
This is below slime, Thunderf00t. I was ignoring this whole drama BS between you and FtB, because even if I disagree with you on some points, I disagree with everyone on some points. But this, *this* is sickeningly unethical. From henceforth I’m not sharing, watching, or promoting any of your work, and I sincerely hope you get prosecuted for this breech of ethic.
August 10, 2012 at 4:39 pm |
I’m not sure why no one else pointed this out. Or why it wasn’t painfully obvious. TF partisans, I guess.
August 10, 2012 at 6:52 pm |
He didn’t hack into anything. He used an invitation that they had sent him and just accessed it. Their stupidity, not his “hacking.”
August 12, 2012 at 2:57 am |
Harvard Business School would not agree with you. http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2005/03/08/
August 10, 2012 at 3:09 pm |
The conflict between Thunderf00t and FTB actually makes fascinating drama and highlights the differences of ideas and opinions in the atheist community.
As a member of the general public reviewing this conflict, I think the vile behaviour at FTB really need to be exposed and shamed.
It is also interesting to note that the majority of critics of FTB are not affiliated with each other. If so many independant well-respected voices (Thunderf00t, Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins…) are saying the same thing about FTB, who do you think has the problem?
August 10, 2012 at 3:11 pm |
Argumentum ad populum? Really General Public? Hey, 76% of the U.S. are Christians, so which side — atheist or Christians — are wrong?
August 10, 2012 at 3:17 pm |
General consensus amongst laymen carries little weight.
General consensus amongst those who lead within a particular field of discourse does. Simple.
August 10, 2012 at 3:58 pm |
So given the skepchick series where a large number of atheist leaders stand up on their side in the violence/harassment against women debate you are therefore a big fan of skepchick.org now?
August 10, 2012 at 4:15 pm
If one does not agree with an approach taken to deal with sexual harassment this does not imply that one endorses sexual harassment. Of course you agree with this.
Furthermore the statements provided by Dillahunty, Silverman ‘et al’ do not support FTB’s approach to sexual harassment. They simply state what Thunderf00t, myself, and most of humanity agree with, that sexual harassment is wrong.
In fact I think that Dillahunty’s statement bordered on chastisement of the Skep Chicks for their behaviour.
August 10, 2012 at 5:29 pm
Yeah right carry on believing they are on your side in this debate – that is why they very publicly chose to have their views aired on the skepchick.org website. It was just to ‘chastise’ them with lots of validation and free publicity!
August 10, 2012 at 10:08 pm
Yup, sure looks like Dillahunty is siding with Thunderf00t… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQEKXlSrziM
August 10, 2012 at 8:54 pm |
@ General Public:
You understand that Matt Dillahunty has a blog on FTB, right?
August 10, 2012 at 3:37 pm |
That’s not argumentum ad populum at all. When the most relevant and respected people in the community shun an aspect of it it’s for good reason.
FTB have become synonymous with thin-skinned hysteria.
August 10, 2012 at 3:13 pm |
Yes, it still hasn’t dawned on Ophelia Benson why she has lost so many friends and former co-writers and associates.
August 10, 2012 at 6:13 pm |
FTB’s behavior doesn’t justify Thunderf00t’s any more than billy kicking a puppy justifies stevie punching a baby. When you’re using logic you wouldn’t accept from a small child, you may wish to rethink your process.
August 10, 2012 at 3:14 pm |
I enjoy how the SUPER SECRET e-mails that TF has produced are completely rational. Notice that they’re talking to each other about a statement made by a notable figure in the atheist community BEFORE making a public post expressing their displeasure. It is just fucking hilarious that this is viewed as some type of conspiracy:
“So I’d just like to know if there’s any good reason why I shouldn’t do this…”
Yeah, there is actually a good reason, I just talked to him on the phone and he said he would clarify…
No, there’s no good reason, it was a stupid tweet, feel free to criticize.
What’s the problem? What’s the conspiracy? It’s people talking before making a public statement. SPOOOOOOKY.
Not everyone just shits out the first infantile thought that pops into their head, a la Thunderf00t. It turns out that this blogging thing works a lot better when people consider notions before spamming retarded nonsense. In fact, that’s a decent name for this blog, “Spamming Retarded Nonsense.”
August 10, 2012 at 3:22 pm |
Reread this, best laugh I’ve had all morning:
“Translation: is it safe to do a knife job on this guy?”
Are you fucking serious? Is this really the thought that popped into your head when reading those e-mails? The paranoia, on top of the sanctimony and self-righteousness, is just stunning.
Hilariously, the post created after that e-mail was sent was a perfectly decent criticism of the tweet. You skim past that to bring up discussion in the comment section, as though THAT was the hatchet job intended by FTB. So now commenters are included in the FTB conspiracy? I like watching this evil entity grow, only the Thunderf00t Truthers can fight back the blood-dimmed tide!
August 10, 2012 at 3:17 pm |
Anon: “So you’re now saying you “resigned” from FTB? Seriously? That’s not how Brayton put it in his post saying you and TFT were leaving. Or is this another case of secret back channel agreements?”
The problem is that the situation is far, far too complicated for small minds such as your to follow. I made this “history” which I am certainly not revising clear in a number of places.
I resigned from Free Thought Blogs. I can prove that, and Ed and PZ will back it up. Then, Ed and PZ asked me to withdraw that reservation. They wanted me to think about it for a while longer. I agreed. At this point I had also told Ed (independently of saying that I wanted to resign) that I wanted him to take me off the mailing list (of which Thunderf00t writes here) because it was too annoying and distracting. I could have just ignore it, but stating that I wanted to be removed from it for now was a way of making a point. So, I don’t know what the conversation consisted of after that. Someone who shall remain nameless did tell me that it looked like they were going to have to ask me to ask me to leave after all because it would not look good to have me stay and kick off Thunderfoot. Soon after that i got an email from Ed saying that after all, they had decided to accept my resignation.
I like Ed and PZ and I still consider them colleagues, but I don’t regard them as even remotely competent when it comes to dealing with things outside of their normal purview, such as managing a group of bloggers. Having said that, few people are. Nothing against them.
You can take these facts, and they are facts, in any way you want but I would appreciate it if you would refrain from calling me a liar.
August 10, 2012 at 4:00 pm |
Ok, Greg, I take it back. You’re clearly not a liar.
You actually believe that stuff.
Quoting Ed Brayton, FTB, July 1:
“We are parting company with two of our bloggers: Thunderf00t and Greg Laden. We wish them both the best but, unfortunately, their behavior towards other members of the community has made it impossible to keep them as part of our network. This is not a matter of a disagreement or difference of opinion, but of behavior that we cannot condone or support.”
Hint: “resignation” implies that you had a say in the matter. The above paragraph does not.
August 10, 2012 at 6:12 pm |
Greg,
Once again, you rely on density and sophistry to cover up a simple truth:
If you had “resigned” then you could presumably return at any time. Had you “resigned, then Brayton wouldn’t have written the bit that rjmx posted about why you weren’t there any more, unless somehow, “resignation” is “behavior we cannot condone or support”.
You got booted because you threatened another FTB blogger. Period. none of your puling justifications will change that.
Shouldn’t you be off stalking grad students?
August 10, 2012 at 7:07 pm |
We have fairly decent mirror images, here, in Laden and Thunderf00t:
Both did really stupid things. Both cannot admit that they did really stupid things. Neither will be able to move on because they’re fixated on rationalizing the stupid things they did.
The only hope for both of them is to genuinely apologize, understand what they were doing wrong that lead to this point, and start doing better work moving forward.
August 10, 2012 at 6:54 pm |
“small minds”
Reminds me of why I always have thought you were a fuck-twit.
August 10, 2012 at 3:31 pm |
All you people attacking Thunderf00t: It’s called whistleblowing, and it seems that you, FTB and the U.S. government have the same way of thinking: the whistleblowing is the problem and not the wrongdoings exposed by it.
I’d like your opinions on Wikileaks. Do you think the public needs to know about the secret wrongdoings of their government? Now, this is obviously much less serious in scope to gov’t corruption and evil but it’s a similar principle.
It’s a public service. Like the government, there are a lot of people who trust and respect FTB and those prominent figures in it, and when they do scummy shit like this, people need to know about it. The extent of the Catholic Church sex scandal wouldn’t be known if not for whistleblowers and confidential/secret documents being exposed.
This is shit that people need to know. We need to know who we can trust, and FTB is on that list of untrustables now.
Bottom line: Sometimes one needs to act unethically or illegally to get the truth out.
August 10, 2012 at 3:35 pm |
Even if TF got into the email illegally, I’d still support him, just as much as Bradley Manning, Julian Assange and Anonymous. It’s possible to break the rules for good reasons. Not everything is black and white.
August 10, 2012 at 3:52 pm |
Unless you can show that FTB is capable of controlling our very freedom, even our lives, like the government could potentially do without any oversight on the part of its citizenry… then I suggest you rethink what you just said.
August 10, 2012 at 4:07 pm |
Read some of the comments on TFs blog – these clowns think FtBs control them and suppress their freedom of speech. Comments that a skepchick crying is putting the feminist cause back a ways are par for the course. PZ myers is doing more damage to rationality than creationism
They manage to juggle some bizarre dichotomy in their heads where FtBs/Skepchick.org are irrelevant whiners but they must also be stopped or they will destroy the movement!
I would have posted the same comment as you before seeing the attitudes here – but they really believe that equating FtBs with the US government in terms of control is perfectly valid. They are all Bradley Manning-like martyrs trying to defend the atheist-sceptical movement from the invidious attempts of FtBs and Skepchick.org to destroy it.
Truly proves that atheist-sceptics can be as dumb as anyone else – if that needed proving.
August 12, 2012 at 9:21 am |
Holy shit dude…
“these clowns think FtBs control them and suppress their freedom of speech”
Yeah, that’s totally what we think. When you cannot argue againsts someone’s position and you feel the need to create a new position to discredit their actual position; well, it’s called a straw man.
August 10, 2012 at 3:58 pm |
Also, as to why this isn’t whistleblowing: http://freethoughtblogs.com/almostdiamonds/2012/08/10/in-praise-of-whistleblowers/
TF is talking about personal conversations that violate no laws. You must weigh the potential good of his actions (exposing conversations about him) against the potential harm (exposing the real identities of people whose careers and lives could be in jeopardy). This isn’t whistleblowing. This is petty backstabbing and deceit.
We must examine the magnitude of the “wrongdoing” in question on which TF is attempting to “blow the whistle”. is it really important to know what the FTB bloggers say behind the scenes? Aren’t those private communiques? What crimes are they planning?
Who cares what they say behind TF’s back? This amounts to publicly humiliating a classmate because of something you overheard them say in private that you weren’t meant to hear. This is just as petty and pathetic as a grade-school event, too.
August 10, 2012 at 10:04 pm |
I’m sorry, have FTB been gunning down people from helicoptors? Were they elected to represent you?
No?
They’re private individuals on their own blog, the situation is not remotely comparable, you useless fuckwit.
August 10, 2012 at 3:32 pm |
Freethought blogs…….What a fucking joke.
August 10, 2012 at 3:34 pm |
So, ThunderFoot hacks into a private listserv that he’s been booted from, and posts comments from it here… but he doesn’t doc drop.. ever.
wow, just wow.
August 10, 2012 at 3:38 pm |
“doc dropping” specifically refers to a persons name and contact details.
Get back to your labour in the Tampon Mines.
August 10, 2012 at 3:47 pm |
So, he’s a principled hacker who still shares private correspondence that he shouldn’t have be privy to.. and still mentioned Ed by name. Silly me.
August 10, 2012 at 3:55 pm |
LOL. Hacker? You are gonna have to prove that one sunshine.
August 10, 2012 at 4:25 pm
(Since my previous reply is awaiting moderation and I’m sure TF won’t approve it…)
Proven:
freethoughtblogs [dot] com/lousycanuck/2012/08/10/what-thunderf00t-did-and-how/
As to why this is hacking:
“Hacking means finding out weaknesses in a computer or computer network, though the term can also refer to someone with an advanced understanding of computers and computer networks.”
From en [dot] wikipedia [dot] org/wiki/Hacker_(computer_security)
August 10, 2012 at 3:56 pm |
He mentioned Ed by the name which he is using on his Blog. That’s not docdropping. It’s just putting a source to a quote. If Ed himself made more information about himself available so that this information can get accessed by knowing nothing but his “user name” that’s his own bloody fault and problem. For example it WOULD have been doc dropping if TF would have used a quote by Natalie Reed and made her real name public. Referring to her simply as natalie reed still wouldn’t cont.
Got it?
August 10, 2012 at 4:04 pm
No, great argument, guys. And I’m sure all the third parties he forwarded the information to are equally ethical. Remember (or learn, you guys are usually pretty late to the fact game), FTB learned about this from a mutual acquaintance who received the forwarded e-mails.
This is a disgrace. It’s even more pathetic that anyone is defending it, and most laughably, it turns out there isn’t anything interesting in the e-mails. It’s the CRU global warming hack all over again–LOOK, super secret e-mails that say pretty much what everyone has already said publicly but have cuss words–WOOOOOOOW!
August 10, 2012 at 4:01 pm |
TF00T mentioned the actual blog name name of a blogger!? Holy Hell Batman! That sure is “doc dropping!” (sarcasm)
August 10, 2012 at 3:37 pm |
Full disclosure TF, I’m not your biggest and I think you’re on the wrong of the harassment issue. But this cultish behavior from FTB is astonishing and I’m glad you’ve exposed it.
August 10, 2012 at 4:08 pm |
Seriously, what is the cultish behavior exposed by these hacked e-mails? It looks to me like colleagues discussing an issue before making a public post. If that’s “cultish,” literally every school, business, or professional and amateur association of any kind, anywhere is now a cult.
The e-mails are critical of a tweet. Said tweet was discussed privately between FTB members, then THE EXACT SAME criticism was published in a blog post.
What the hell is wrong with that? What is the revelation? Not everyone adopts stream-of-consciousness rambling as a blogging method–evidently TF was the only fellow operating that way, which is part of the reason he’s gone. He is a really, really poor writer who doesn’t bother to learn about issues before babbling.
August 10, 2012 at 7:28 pm |
If you think professional organisations behave in that way, I can only assume you have never been a member of an actual professional organisation. (Obvious note: not all organisations that call themselves professional actually are)
August 10, 2012 at 8:11 pm |
Yes, every single organization that makes public statements discusses those statements first. Their internal discussions will be more dramatic, more vulgar, more intense, than the statement they end up crafting. If this is news to you, you’re ignorant as all hell.
By the way, what has TF revealed in these e-mails that wasn’t previously published in a blog post?
August 10, 2012 at 9:01 pm
LOL. This isn’t about discussing responses. This is about trying to hurt the critic for having an opinion different to your own.
No. Professional organisations would take on board criticism, possibly disagreeing, perhaps take damage limiting exercises (perhaps by working with the critic – now there’s a novel approach). No professional organisation would attempt to attack the critic for disagreeing. That is scientology territory (and no, I don’t consider scientology to be a professional organisation).
Attempt to take down a critic occurs in unprofessional organisations who don’t have a clue because such a strategy almost always backfires.
The fact you can’t tell the difference between these two things doesn’t mean there isn’t a difference.
August 10, 2012 at 3:50 pm |
Whistle-blowing LOL Wow! Seriously that is the justification? Comparing priests being outed for rapping little boys is the same is Tfoot outing FTB? That is some seriously strong stupid!
August 10, 2012 at 4:09 pm |
Yes, now the evil conspiracy of discussing an event prior to making a public statement has been exposed. Peaance and Freeance spread through the land.
August 10, 2012 at 3:51 pm |
The evidence is piling up, and is damning: http://freethoughtblogs.com/lousycanuck/2012/08/10/what-thunderf00t-did-and-how/
August 10, 2012 at 4:33 pm |
and now we have actual proof. And what t-f00t did was douchey and wrong.
August 10, 2012 at 5:34 pm |
Cool – it surely matters not a jot to John but my respect for him has just increased ten-fold. Proves that not everyone on his side of the debate will jump on any anti-FtBs band wagon regardless.
August 10, 2012 at 6:08 pm |
Thanks. Really. I’m rather annoyed with T-F00t at this. He had some good points about the FTB lot, (and some dumb ones too), and while I don’t think his earlier points about them are untrue, this move was simply inexcusable.
Even allowing for the mailing list configuration being stupid, you still don’t do that. it’s wrong. Anyone blaming FTB for “allowing” it to happen would be a perfect example of “victim blaming”. It’s not your fault your house is broken into even if the door was unlocked. It’s the fault of the person what broke in.
Don’t get me wrong, my opinion of FTB hasn’t changed, even though what T-F00t did was wrong. The FC5 is still a jackass collective of the highest order. But, Jason did to a good job of providing objective proof of T-F00t’s actions, and even if you disagree with FTB, even if you personally dislike them, what T-F00t did was *Wrong*.
Actually, I think it’s because I think the FC5 should have all been left on the hillside for wolves at birth that I’m saying this. If you want to yell at them, fine. If you want to call them names, and point out how ugly their mothers are? Fine. But don’t be jacking into mailing lists you’ve been booted from just to vacuum shit up. That’s bullshit, period.
August 12, 2012 at 10:27 pm |
oolon, I think you might need to re-assess your interpretation of the comments in this thread.
I too think what TF did was unethical at best and illegal and unethical at worst. John is far from the only critical voice of TF here (although I think most people here prefer him to TFB in spite of his poor judgement).
However I’ve seen multiple replies you’ve made to people who’ve decried certain revelations about TFB, that goes a long the lines of “two wrongs don’t make a right!”, when the person in question hasn’t made any attempt to say what TF did was okay because TFB have done worse.
They’re merely saying TFB has no right to be outraged at what TF has done when they’ve done far worse. This is not the same thing as saying TF hasn’t done anything wrong.
From reading the comments, it seems most people posting in this thread are against what TF did, ranging from unconditional disapproval, to milder criticism that its counter productive and will simply damage TF more than TFB.
I would guess that you feel the comments are mainly approving of his actions which is why I would recommend re-reading some posts and checking to see if you aren’t falling prey to confirmation bias, seeing anti-TFB statements as pro-TF statements.
August 10, 2012 at 3:59 pm |
Given the evidence Jason Thibeault has posted I’m retracting my earlier question and posing this one: you claim your actions are ethical because you’re protecting someone from a conspiracy hatched on the FTB listserv. You accessed the listserv before having any knowledge of the potential “plot” – do you think you were acting ethically by accessing the listserv in the method you did, with the knowledge you had at the time?
August 10, 2012 at 4:11 pm |
I will bet a trillion internets that this question is not answered.
August 10, 2012 at 7:16 pm |
I’ll up the ante to over 9000 internets!
August 10, 2012 at 4:04 pm |
Another interesting difference between Thunderf00t and PZ Myers of FTB:
– Thunderf00t posts Tweets that are sparse yet interesting.
– PZ Myers’ posts Tweets that are numerous and banal.
Anyone else noticed this?
August 10, 2012 at 4:06 pm |
Hey, ya ever notice that provolone cheese smells like feet?
What the fuck does that have to do with anything above?
August 10, 2012 at 4:13 pm |
Let me translate General Public’s post for you:
“I don’t like FTB because I hate feminists. TF hates feminists, too, so no matter how stupid his posts are, no matter how vile his behavior, I will defend him. Unfortunately, TF’s behavior has passed the point where anyone with a minimally functioning brain can see how reprehensibly he has behaved. Therefore I will talk about other things PZ Myers does that I do not like.”
August 10, 2012 at 4:23 pm |
The trap swings shut.
Would I be wrong in thinking that half of FTB population are trolling this forum?
Look at the differing styles of responses:
1. Calm rational messages of support for Thunderf00t
vs.
2. Vitriolic barbs filled with hate and urgency.
August 10, 2012 at 4:29 pm
Haha. Some trap. I’ve been snared by self-indulgent internet whining. HELP!
August 10, 2012 at 4:32 pm
“Calm rational messages of support for Thunderf00t”
LMAO! You truly are hilarious!!
“FTB is a wasteland these days. (Girlyban: Please retweet and attack me for my personal opinions. Go ad hominem ad infinitum. You know you WANT to!!) The more “crazy” that gets documented, the better off for the sane. Surly Amy and her latest bit of hyperventilated pearl clutching over “fake” jewelry and descriptions of mundane t-shirt sloganeering as ‘hate speech’ is likely to make it’s way to Saturday Night Live mockificaton if we just help PROMOTE what the American Girlyban are saying themselves! Have you been Girlybanned yet? Enjoy.”
Sounds calm and rational to me.
“Looks like the FreeThoughtBible assclowns truly, honestly, think their so-called movement is as riteous as god’s left testicle.”
Yep, purely rational.
“More like censorship, self promotion, ill tactics, vapid drivel and bearded clams. FTB – Fuck you!”
Mmm, more rationality and calmness.
“The “Free Thought” Blogs comment section is highly moderated and patrolled so nothing can interfere with their group think circle-jerk. It reminds me of all those ID forums I used to visit when I first got interested in rationalism. Bunch of brain dead lunatics.”
Yup, very rational.
“PZ Myers needs to be checked for chemical poisoning.”
Sounds rational to me.
“Check the Girlyban nail polish removers, and ferchrissakes, somebody send a forensics team to analyze those off-beat Girlyban hair dyes.”
Yep, “Girlyban” isn’t misogynistic at all, and is quite reasonable.
“Given how readily PeeZus, Ophelia and others on FTB happily, HAPPILY post other people’s emails when they find it convenient…”
Yep, name-calling (“PeeZus”) is perfectly calm and rational.
Shall I go on?
August 10, 2012 at 5:37 pm
Hehe proof that the General Public are as dumb as we have been led to believe. No one is going to believe that was some carefully prepared trap, you dingbat!
August 10, 2012 at 5:53 pm
Nicely played.
However the retardation of FallaciousTaleBelievers posts/spam is making them very obvious.
August 10, 2012 at 4:26 pm |
Uhh Ohhh – you don’t say!! OMG your right! PZ’s tweets are sooooooooooooo dumb. Fine! You have convinced me. I just have to join the group think cult that are Tfoot followers. It is the morally and just actions to take. I can’t worship at the alter of someone that has dumb tweets! Thanks Gernal Public. You have saved my life!
August 10, 2012 at 4:13 pm |
I’m glad you did this TFoot. You might have saved Michael Payton his job. And as they say “sunshine is the best disinfectant.”
August 10, 2012 at 4:14 pm |
What was said about Michael Payton in that e-mail discussion that was not said in the public blog post?
August 10, 2012 at 4:14 pm |
Since i cannot use the reply function anymore, my dear truecolours I’ll continue here. Natalie Reed THE person (according to FTB itself) herself said that she can’t continue her blogging work since she cannot or doesn’t want to rely on TF’s integrity not to doc drop her. So what does this tell us? He hasn’t bloody done it. This and this alone tells us all we need to know. What he forwarded was content not private information.
So no. Still no doc dropping. Got it this time?
August 10, 2012 at 4:16 pm |
*THE one person that had most to lose by getting doc dropped
August 10, 2012 at 4:20 pm |
He hasn’t done it yet, and we also have no idea what third parties have obtained that information. Natalie is legitimately afraid that her personal information will be made public as a result of this hacking. That could happen because TF just makes it public, or it could happen because he has spread that information to an unknown number of people.
Again, FTB found out about the hack because a third party received forwarded e-mails from TF and informed them. This is deeply unethical behavior, and after doing all of that, TF’s personal assurance that he would never “doc drop” is laughable.
Why on Earth would anyone take a person like that at his word?
August 16, 2012 at 11:10 pm |
His “hacking” has nothing to do with her personal information. At one point TF was a welcomed member to the list, hence all of that information was given freely before he was removed from the list. She noted that it’s right there in her e-mail address.
She may concerned that he will release the info, though he hasn’t made any attempt and claims not to have an interest in doing so, but the “hacking” and falling out all happened after he was ‘given’ her information.
August 10, 2012 at 4:23 pm |
And she did not say she could not continue her blogging work. Yet another example of the TF Truthers and their shocking lack of reading comprehension.
Here’s the post, quote me the portion where she is quitting blogging:
http://freethoughtblogs.com/nataliereed/2012/08/10/all-in/
Also notice the horrible horseshit TF said to her directly. He’s a very bad person.
August 10, 2012 at 4:29 pm |
Reed had zero problem bagging on anyone she felt was a worthy target. Reed had zero problems with “enemies” of FTB being stalked by FTB bloggers and attempts made to get them fired, or banned from NatGeo/SCiblogs.
I feel somewhat bad for reed, but she supported the hell out of the crap the FC5 pulled against people she felt were “bad”. Well, that’s the problem when you start supporting fair game tactics against people. At some point, someone is going to pull that shit against you, if nothing else, just to prove they can.
She enjoyed that shit, or stood by silently and supported it that way while it was directed at “others’. When it came home to her, now it’s a problem. Well, yes it is.
Before you start a fight, ask yourself how fine you are with being hit back.
August 10, 2012 at 4:32 pm |
Offer links to these complaints. You guys have a long history of misunderstanding and misrepresenting people’s positions. Offer some evidence of your complaints and let’s see if they’re similar to what happened here.
What are you whining about? I don’t want your summaries, give me some evidence.
August 10, 2012 at 6:01 pm
Is there any evidence that would convince you i’m not lying? Doubful. So why waste the effort.
August 10, 2012 at 6:38 pm
You have to be smart enough to realize what an awesomely shitty reply that is. I can tell what evidence is guaranteed to be unconvincing, the evidence you’ve supplied: no evidence.
I think you are very bad at reading and understanding things in the rare instances when you’re not intentionally misrepresenting people’s positions. I will therefore not believe your Cliff’s notes version of any given event unless you can supply a link–note that evidence of that sort is very, very easy to come by if you’re not full of shit.
The fact that you won’t is a good indication that you really don’t have any, and your whining about FTB can be dismissed accordingly.
August 10, 2012 at 4:34 pm |
Is THAT what you go by reading Natalie Reed’s post? Not that TF’s word is all she has to go on that her life won’t be ruined? All she has is TF’s word of “honor” that he won’t reveal any bit of information that will ruin Natalie’s life.
Why should TF have that power in the first place? The power to copy and paste ONE single line that could potentially ruin her real life… all over a petty internet squabble.
Your senses of priority and perspective need readjusting.
August 12, 2012 at 10:54 pm |
Can you link me to the posts by Natalie Reed decrying the attempt to fuck up Michael Paytons life by trying to get him fired for saying he found the FTB network “unreadable”?
You do realize the Greg Laden has had access to the same mailing list and has also tried to get someone fired (Abbie Smith). I wonder why Natalie Reed wasn’t worried about Greg’s “honor” being the only thing between her and a ruined life? It couldn’t possibly be because she was totally okay with Greg trying to fuck up Abbie Smiths life because she was considered an enemy of FTB?
Pending that link on Natalie Reeds concern for Michael Payton, in regards to her fear of being “outed”, I’d like to say, fuck her concern. She’s apparently OK with her group deliberately trying to fuck up other peoples lives over a “petty internet squabble” so why the fuck should I care about her POSSIBLY being outed by FT?
Guess my priorities are wrong. They should be focused on bringing down the enemies of FTB right?
TFs actions are inexcusable but you’re by far looking at a lesser evil.
I guess destroying peoples lives over a “petty internet squabble” only matters when its A) a member of FTBs life and B) there’s only the potential risk, not a definite intent.
Just imagine if FT was saying he would deliberately out Natalie Reed as an attempt to get her fired and get her ostracized from her community. Imagine how outraged you would be with that? That’s how outraged you should be with FTB.
This is not the first time FTB and its associate groups (like SkepChick) have professed a definite and enduring desire to completely ostracize someone from the skeptic community and ruin their livelihoods by getting them fired. I doubt it will be the last. Maybe its you who needs to fix your priorities.
August 20, 2012 at 3:21 am |
Just to clarify, all of Natalie Reeds information was made available to ThunderFoot while he was a legitimate blooger for FtB. He didn’t steal her personal information, well at least not the identifying stuff that is at issue here.
So, Natalie Reed and FtB gave ThunderFoot the power you’re talking about because it has nothing to do with his access to FtB’s email list AFTER he was ejected.
August 10, 2012 at 4:17 pm |
I think it’s also worth pointing out that the criticisms of TF at the end of the post are really, really true. You are a horrible human being behaving like a teenager who just got rejected by the girl he asked out to prom and are pursuing personal vendettas.
There is literally no substantive value to any of the e-mails you’ve posted. There’s not a single revelation, not even a bit worth criticizing, all you’ve managed to do is show that members of FTB mute their criticisms (some of them) when posting publicly, but the substance of the criticisms is the same.
Grats.
August 10, 2012 at 4:24 pm |
FTB is just as guilty of publishing private emails as T-F00t. What T-f00t did is wrong on its own, but please, don’t even try to give FTB some kind of moral high ground here. they have none.
August 10, 2012 at 4:28 pm |
If you send an e-mail to a blogger without a prior agreement to keeping it confidential, that’s very different than hacking onto a private listserv with an explicit confidentiality agreement and then publicizing the contents.
Link to some examples of FTB engaging in this horrific behavior and let’s compare and contrast.
August 10, 2012 at 4:30 pm |
Ophelia, who complained loud and long about her “private” emails being published without any such guarantee, all the while having done the same thing herself.
August 10, 2012 at 4:33 pm
Again, this is not a link. This is your summary of the event. I do not trust your ability to read and understand an issue. Provide evidence.
August 10, 2012 at 4:36 pm
Links to actual content, and not your filtered perspective on past events, plz.
August 10, 2012 at 6:00 pm
There’s no point in providing evidence to you. You already think i’m lying, so why should I bother. Even if I do, you’re going to dismiss it as “NOT EXACTLY THE SAME”, so really, it’s about as worthwhile as providing evidence to climate change deniers. The results will be the same.
August 10, 2012 at 6:35 pm
Haha, that is just a beautiful reply. It’s astonishing…Rovian in its brilliance.
You’re not going to show any evidence–you easily could, of course, I mean, just like old Joe McCarthy you have a briefcase FULL of evidence–but you’re not going to share it because you can just tell that it will be dismissed.
Just incredible. Really great stuff. And you wonder why the anti-FTB folks are so roundly mocked. Hilarious.
August 12, 2012 at 3:11 am |
How can you say with any justification that FTB is just as guilty of publishing private emails as Tfoot? Members FTB hacked into a system to get emails? There is not even a hint of evidence of that – this really is false equivalence.
August 10, 2012 at 4:22 pm |
A few things on Beiber’s chain of events:
1) Thundrf00t: douche move. The fact that those idiots didn’t know how to properly configure a mail server doesn’t excuse your actions. you knew you weren’t welcome on it, the reasons for sneaking back on it are lame. You do owe them an apology for that shit. Seriously.
(Note to idiots: when offered actual proof of an accusation that is believable, regardless of source, I change my opinion of the situation. Ooooh…actual critical thinking.)
2) Once again, we see that expertise in one field, (being the skeptic version of a new media douchebag) is not expertise in all fields, (properly configuring a mail server). Given the lack of expertise by those idiots, if anyone has given them any form of login credentials that you use anywhere else, then you really want to start changing some passwords.
3) If you don’t want to risk having the shit you talk about someone getting out, the easy solution is: stop talking shit about them. Or when it gets out, don’t try to hide behind BUT THAT WAS PRIVATE. Yes, t-f00t was a complete assclown for that action, but, maybe if you hadn’t said shit you’re unwilling to say in public to someone’s face on that mailing list, then that information being revealed wouldn’t be a problem for you. If you’re unwilling to say it in public, don’t say it in private.
4) Again, FTB crying about private emails being revealed is pretty fucking hilarious given how most of those assclowns do the same thing when they feel it convenient to do so. There’s a bit of tit for tat in this. Were they not such raging cockfaces, I’d say “Maybe you should ponder this shit the next time you’re tempted to do another “I get email…” post. But, i doubt it. Self-awareness is not their thing.
I’m still amused at FTB being so whiny about this. None of the FC5, not PeeZus, not beiber, ophelia, reed, none of them have ANY problem going all blogwar on people, stalking them, trying to get them fired, or making threats against them. (Again, Zvan defended Laden’s threats against Justin.) But the instant any of that shit gores THEIR ox? OMG U RAPED MY BAYBEEE!
Grow the fuck up. If you don’t like getting (metaphorically) punched in the fucking face, stop (metaphorically) punching other people first.
August 10, 2012 at 4:40 pm |
“…maybe if you hadn’t said shit you’re unwilling to say in public to someone’s face on that mailing list…”
They said shit they were unwilling to say in public because it was a PRIVATE mailing list! What part of that don’t you comprehend? It was a private conversation area where they could filter out their ideas BEFORE submitting them to the public sphere.
“FTB crying about private emails being revealed is pretty fucking hilarious given how most of those assclowns do the same thing when they feel it convenient to do so…”
Please provide links to examples of this. Unless all you’ve got are PZ’s “I get email” posts. I see a lot of “Oh, other FTBers do this all the time!” which is like when theists say, “Atheism is a religion, too!” as though dragging us down to their level props up their position any bit.
“None of the FC5, not PeeZus, not beiber, ophelia, reed, none of them have ANY problem going all blogwar on people, stalking them, trying to get them fired, or making threats against them…”
Again, please show links, rather than your filtered and possibly biased perspective on past events, k?
August 10, 2012 at 4:43 pm |
I think it’s also worth reiterating that TF has yet to produce anything in these super secret e-mails that hasn’t been said publicly. The closest he got was Brayton’s pariah statement, but substantively that point has been made by many FTB bloggers (and the decent portion of the “movement”).
So what’s the reveal? What did we learn that wasn’t known before?
August 10, 2012 at 5:59 pm |
The location doesn’t matter. If you’re talking shit about someone, then be willing to say it in public or stop talking shit. PeeZus does this all the time. he’ll thunder down about people from his blog, but in person? Doesn’t say a fucking word. “Gelato Guy” is a perfect example of this.
As far as releasing “private” email, the fact that one is on a mailing list and another is not is immaterial, especially given Ophelia’s *bewailing* about an email she sent to someone, NOT on a “private” mailing list being published, and yet she does the exact same thing all the time. If publishing email is bad, then don’t do it, ever. If you’re going to do it to others, then STFU when someone does it to you.
As far as proof, um, Greg Laden’s stalking of Abbie Smith, his emails to her employer to get her in trouble/fired, and the fact that when he threatened to beat Justin’s ass, the only public comments of “that’s not kosher” were:
Brayton, explaining why he was booted.
Hallquist, in a comment on a facebook thread.
No one else said shit, and Zvan even DEFENDED laden over it.
But given your FTB fan status, I expect you to dismiss all of this, it’s inconvenient to your narrative of FTB as perfect moral examples.
August 10, 2012 at 8:21 pm |
Okay, real talk. It is okay for people to have private conversations.
It is okay for people to have private conversations.
It is okay for people to have private conversations.
EVEN if they say nasty things about other people.
The content of those private conversations does not change their privacy value, they should remain private.
Have you ever had a bad day and said some shit about some people? I don’t know you, but if you are human I feel pretty safe making the assumption that you have! Did you want that information to be shared around? Almost certainly not.
August 11, 2012 at 6:37 am
it’s not always ok to have private conversations, for example, if you are conspiring to commit a crime. this is not quite that extreme, but it is approaching that; conspiring to defame and/or get someone fired may not be a felony, but it is pretty bad and can warrant a lawsuit.
August 11, 2012 at 5:07 pm |
“They said shit they were unwilling to say in public because it was a PRIVATE mailing list! What part of that don’t you comprehend?”
Sending an e-mail has NO expectation of privacy. Sending an e-mail to a dozen or more people has even less expectation of privacy. Sending an e-mail to automatic software which in turn sends it to dozens or more people even less.
“It was a private conversation area where they could filter out their ideas BEFORE submitting them to the public sphere.”
Private conversation areas do not exist. You do have a reasonable expectation of privacy in your home, apt, or hotel room. Outside of this area overhearing someone else’s conversation doesn’t equate to eavesdropping. The same expectation for written, or rather, typed communication, digital communication, where every piece of software has the ability to forward said communication to anyone else on planet earth.
August 10, 2012 at 4:44 pm |
Also…
“(Note to idiots: when offered actual proof of an accusation that is believable, regardless of source, I change my opinion of the situation. Ooooh…actual critical thinking.)”
Not quite. REAL critical thinking is examining the evidence at hand. If there is no evidence yet, then hold off on opinion until such evidence comes to light, or until such evidence seems to be lacking for a significant period of time. NOT name-calling and immediately siding with Tf00t on this issue, then when the evidence appears, you only end up looking like an idiot.
Kudos for changing your mind when presented with the evidence, I guess. But it would’ve made more sense to simply hold off on ANY opinion until the evidence came forward.
August 10, 2012 at 5:44 pm |
One little point about competence in IT security… HB Gary were fucked by anonymous and using some pretty simple SQL injection techniques – they were an IT security firm and regardless of their subsequently discovered stupidity had people with real IT security knowledge. John you are in charge of IT for an organisation – care to goad Anonymous or other group of script-kiddies and see how good your security really is? When this was a vulnerability in the software they used – it accepted authorisation tokens that had been used by a now defunct account – I don’t think incompetence is totally justified.
August 11, 2012 at 9:15 pm |
Since when did striking back at an enemy who strikes you and states their intention to do you further harm ever been unjustified? Since when did doing what it takes to stop miscreants from doing harm to yourself and others ever been anything but honorable and courageous?
Your last sentence says:
Right back at you. In the “grown up” world, the right thing to do isn’t always nice, and sometimes you have to get your hands dirty. I figured you of all people would realize that, and I’m disappointed to see you advocating stupidity.
Let’s flip your scenario around. When someone seriously attacks you or someone else, you assess the threat and either fight or retreat. If you choose to fight — or cannot run — then you damn well better attack until your attacker can no longer fight. If that means fighting dirty, then you sure as shit better fight dirty.
The objective of conflict is to win, and a moral victory aren’t the same as real victory. The perpetrators at FFTB and their enablers certainly realize this, and they don’t seem to mind getting their hands dirty. Why the hell should thunderf00t avoid doing so, or anyone else for that matter?
August 10, 2012 at 4:26 pm |
Paraphrasing some of the comments here: “Thunderf00t, your place is making good videos. Don’t pay attention to being treated like a floor mat every once in a while, just take it.”
Thunderf00t is doing what needs to be done, which is standing up to bullies. If you don’t stand up to bullies, you continue to be bullied and that is a fact of life. “Thank you, may I have another one, sir” is not a practical response.
Re: outing people’s intentions from “private” emails. All emails should be treated as private, except when stated otherwise. Just like someone in FfTB reserves his right to publish personal information from some emails even if they are sent to him as private communications, TF should be able to do just that as soon as he caught on to the scent of ostracism.
August 10, 2012 at 4:31 pm |
T-F00t standing up to bullies? Good. T-f00t being a douchebag about it, and breaking into a mailing list he’s clearly not welcome on? Not good.
August 10, 2012 at 4:47 pm |
To write and imply that Thunderf00t himself hacked a server when it may not have been hacked at all is libel
It doesn’t matter where you ‘heard’ it.
August 10, 2012 at 5:53 pm |
abuse of the term “hacked” not withstanding, Jason presents a pretty clear set of evidence that T-F00t did in fact rejoin a mailing list he’d been kicked off of and is no longer welcome on. Call it hacking if you wish, but it’s definitely a douchey move, regardless of the reasons. The ends do not justify the means.
August 11, 2012 at 9:45 pm
I fail to see how protecting another person from harm by malicious cowards isn’t justification enough.
August 11, 2012 at 9:50 pm
That should be “I fail to see how protecting yourself or another person…”
August 11, 2012 at 9:24 pm |
Gomez, it’s nice to see at least someone else with a sense of justice around here.
August 10, 2012 at 4:30 pm |
What ever people think about the bloggers on FtB (not much would seem to be the general tone) they are private citizens and have the same right to an expectation of privacy as everyone else. A private mailing list is private correspondence and even if Thunderf00t was accidentally given access by mistake after he was drummed out of FtB that still is not permission to make any correspondence on the mailing list public. Doesn’t matter whether he is posting snippets or dropping the whole think Wikileak style. He has no more right to make this stuff public than he does to publish PZ Myers’ snail mail because someone accidentally left it on his desk.
This isn’t the Pentagon papers. It isn’t “whistle blowing”. Whistle blowing is exposing dishonest practices in an organisation that has a public responsibility not to act dishonestly. For example a company that is making public claims in their advertisements that they know are false. Or a politician making false statements to the people who vote for him.
Someone like PZ Myers or Ed Brayton have no public responsibility to act a particular way, to not act dishonestly or petty or vindictive. It is not in the public interest to ignore their right to privacy in an effort to point out that they are even if they are. There is no public interest argument here. Having a public blog does not mean you are no longer a private citizen.
I don’t know the history of FtB leaking their own mailing list, but that is largely irrelevant. You do not give up your right to privacy by leaking your own private information. If I decide to tell someone how much money is in my bank account that doesn’t mean hacking into my bank account is now fair game.
The reality is that the wrongness of this act has nothing to do with the ongoing discussion about scepticism, online harassment, sexism or any of that. It is purely and simply a matter of the principle of privacy and respecting privacy.
You should respect the privacy of people you don’t respect.
You should respect the privacy of people who don’t respect the privacy of others.
You should respect the privacy of those who don’t respect their own privacy.
I really hope he apologises and moves on from this. Yes that apology would probably not be well received by FtB members, but at least he would be being the bigger man and owning up to a mistake in judgement.
August 10, 2012 at 4:46 pm |
To write and imply that Thunderf00t himself hacked a server when it may not have been hacked at all is libel.
It doesn’t matter where you ‘heard’ it
August 10, 2012 at 4:48 pm |
Are you really that ignorant? Or have you not read the post wherein proof is provided that Thunderf00t attempted to access a mailing list through a security loophole? http://freethoughtblogs.com/lousycanuck/2012/08/10/what-thunderf00t-did-and-how/
August 10, 2012 at 5:10 pm |
This is what is referred to as ‘hearsay’.
August 10, 2012 at 5:19 pm
What? Did you even read the post? It has the actual logs (with TF’s email address removed) that shows repeated attempts on the part of TF to access the mailing list, after he had already accessed it without permission.
Go on and read the post before outright dismissing it.
August 10, 2012 at 5:51 pm
I’m no fan of beiber, but I did read his post, and i’m inclined to accept his proof as legit. If you have better proof that disproves Jason’s, by all means, present it.
August 11, 2012 at 5:19 pm |
“What? Did you even read the post?”
I sure did.
“that shows repeated attempts on the part of TF to access the mailing list”
Yeah, by asking for a new password.
“wherein proof is provided that Thunderf00t attempted to access a mailing list through a security loophole”
Here’s where we jump the shark. Based on your own citation, TF was given an invite to join a mail list with an auth code. He joined it, then was unjoined, and used THE SAME CODE to join it again.
This isn’t hacking, this isn’t or exploitation. It’s not circumvention, nor was it a loophole. The gent was given a legit authorization code, and that code was never revoked.
Now TF might be an assmaster, however, the claim in this thread is libel and/or defamation of character, and this would apply. The access was authorized by definition. Anyone who claims hacking or circumvention is FULL OF SHIT.
August 12, 2012 at 3:20 am
If you manage to retain a key to a property that you once had legitimate access to, but now do not (e.g. end of lease) that does not make it ok to use the key to enter the property that you are no longer authorised to enter.
August 10, 2012 at 5:35 pm |
Ok … ?
Since I didn’t do that I’m not sure why that reply was directed at me. I assumed Thunderf00t simply still had access after he should have been removed due to an sys admin mistake. Ultimately it doesn’t matter to the point I’m making, how he got the emails is not the issue I’m concerned with it is the leaking of the emails.
August 10, 2012 at 4:34 pm |
Isn’t this the Pot calling the Kettle black. Everything TF is complaining about is exactly what happens on his youtube channel and what happens in this blog. Including the Poll where he says it was a balanced survey.
I have a friend like thunderfoot. They seek conflict. They need it to validate and justify themselves. You can see this in his videos. the best ones are when he’s attacking another.
They are the shit disturbers. They can be great friends but they are not professional.
August 12, 2012 at 11:02 pm |
How many members of FTB has TF tried to get fired from their jobs and ostracized from the skeptic community?
Who’s the shit disturber again?
August 10, 2012 at 4:37 pm |
What exactly are you blowing the whistle on here? That the people behind FfTB talk privately about the subjects of upcoming blog posts? I’d have been very surprised if this wasn’t the case.
All there seems to be here is the immature over-reaction of some idiots to a tweet which dared to be dismissive of their network (and yeah that is very funny), but you are also deliberately conflating this with the actions of its lunatic commenters and fans which is a pretty underhanded tactic.
If you’ve got worse, you might as well post it now anyway.
August 10, 2012 at 4:39 pm |
you know, I was going to say that TF has to be the most egregious jackass on the internet right now, but then I read the comments and was reminded of Welch and Tuvok.
Have nice days!
August 10, 2012 at 4:45 pm |
posted before I saw Welch’s more recently posted and commendable position re the listserv hack.
OK, he’s almost allways an asshole.
August 10, 2012 at 4:42 pm |
I used to have hope for some of the authors at FreeDramaBlogs as the next generation to represent atheists and freethinkers as many of the brilliant minds representing us are aging. No more. I’m appalled that this clique of fame whores is who is representing me in the public sphere. They will in the long run do nothing but set the movement back if they continue this way. As for you TF00t! Move on from this drama! You are brilliant and have a real message to send. More science, less stupidity! I say this with nothing but love and respect.
August 10, 2012 at 4:42 pm |
rjmx: Yes, as I said. The little minds can’t handle the complexity of it all. I hear you wear loafers. That’s good.
August 10, 2012 at 6:01 pm |
That’s ok, Greg. Hey, when you’ready to come back to reality, we’ll be right here.
(aside) Sigh. One of the great minds of his time*, and a legend in his own mind. Such a sad case.
* 54BC
August 10, 2012 at 4:43 pm |
To write and imply that Thunderf00t himself hacked a server when it may not have been hacked at all is libel.
It doesn’t matter where you ‘heard’ it.
August 10, 2012 at 4:44 pm |
Ah, clearly this post was written by a lawyer. Such an astute, nuanced understanding of the law.
August 10, 2012 at 4:50 pm |
FTB troll alert.
August 10, 2012 at 4:54 pm |
TF Truther alert!
Another brave soul standing proudly in defense of the indefensible.
The evidence is available. Truth is an absolute defense from charges of libel or slander, and you know damn well he did it.
Keep fighting, bruh.
August 10, 2012 at 4:46 pm |
OK if just for a sense of balance, Thunderf00t, was this really worth not only risking having this blog shut down (I’m sure the FTBers and their supporters would love that), but the possibility of getting into legal trouble?
A least I can criticize both sides, unlike those who choose to ignore the FTBers threatening someone’s livelihood over a tweet saying their site is ‘unreadable’. What a HORRIBLE and APPALLING thing to say, huh?
August 10, 2012 at 4:50 pm |
I’m an FTB supporter, not only do I want this blog to remain up, I think it’s important. One of the worst mistakes FTB made was deleting the TF’s page. It just allows mythology to spring up: poor, rational Thunderf00t, trying to make serious, well-considered arguments but the mean old FTBers just attacked him, FOR NO REASON.
As long as we have access to TF’s posts, that mythology dies. When you can read for yourself the childish, poorly written, ignorant posts, it becomes clear why people would not want their blog network associated with such an awful product.
This blog post falls right in line. His interpretation of those e-mails in Beck-ian in its rabid paranoia. Hard to pretend he’s anything other than a guy that made good videos when his target was teenaged creationists, but gets winding quickly when he’s competing in his actual weight class.
August 10, 2012 at 4:57 pm |
Thunderf00t’s article was rational, well-argued, and genuinely thought-provoking. That was ultimately the problem.
As I see it the people at FTB couldn’t take criticism and raised and army of straw men and banned him.
“If you don’t like our approach to sexual harassment then we are going to tell everyone you support sexual harassment.”
Sorry that type of behaviour is simply not on.
August 10, 2012 at 5:01 pm |
Haha, no. It really, really wasn’t. It was infantile in its reasoning and presentation, it was demonstrably misguided, and defending it only expresses a lack of knowledge and a perverse approach to rational thought on the part of the defender.
There was nothing remotely interesting or revelatory in what TF produced, on any subject, on any level. It was a bad high school paper.
August 10, 2012 at 5:16 pm
Thankfully the general public can still access all the material in question (re-posted elsewhere) and see who’s defending the indefensible.
August 10, 2012 at 5:21 pm
I agree. I’m glad that horseshit is available so everyone who has completed their first year of college can laugh at the amazingly crappy product and mock the people defending it.
I have the same reaction to your posts as I do when someone tells me their favorite jazz sax player is Kenny G. It’s really the same thing in every way possible, hair included.
August 11, 2012 at 4:46 am |
As of right now, FTB hasn’t deleted Tf00t’s content, they’ve just removed the links to it from the sidebar.
I just visited it right now, as I had it bookmarked.
August 10, 2012 at 4:58 pm |
Libel – you’ve heard by now that it was hacked or cracked, right? Lousy Canuck has the whole thing – it was deliberate and malicious access after he was taken off, and when they found out and kicked him off again, the have a log of him immediately trying to get back on eight times in a row. Are you still defending him?
August 10, 2012 at 5:00 pm |
Kindergarten!
At this point TF just seems like an asshurt, spoiled, little child. All I read is: The evil people won´t let me play with them, therefore they are meany stupidheads, with no scientific integrity, who lie and cheat and secretly conspire against everyone who thinks different from them.
Grow up! Let it go!
If someone over there writes something on his blog you disagree with, feel free to criticize that. But quoting private conversations and colouring the opinion of some people as a great conspiracy, just makes you look even more silly. Similar to birth certificate truthers or the “free energy” morons, who claim the FBI has stolen their technology.
August 12, 2012 at 11:07 pm |
So you don’t think anyone should be standing up for Michael Payton?
Its cool for you if someone calls FTB “unreadable” in a tweet, that that group, a group with significant reach and influence (especially in the skeptic community) should try and get another skeptic fired for that?
August 10, 2012 at 5:03 pm |
Thunderf00t-since you’re now as obsessive, self-absorbed, self-destructive and knee deep in potentially illegal activity on the interwebs as he was, I’m going to tell you what I told VenomfangX a few years ago.
Close up shop. Get off the computer and stay off of it. You don’t have the maturity required. You can’t handle life on the internet responsibility. Go get a real life. This one is no good–it’s just gonna wind up getting somebody hurt.
August 10, 2012 at 5:20 pm |
Oh man, that whole VenomfangX thing certainly takes on a different character after this. Is it possible that TF has regressed that far?
August 10, 2012 at 5:09 pm |
The FTB community is a detriment to the skeptic community and the feminist community . Conviction of your own self righteousness doesn’t give the right to throw all intellectual honesty and integrity over board . The man who wants save the world is more likely to be the catalyst of an burning world than the man who simply wants the world to burn
August 10, 2012 at 5:11 pm |
I like Freethought Blogs, because I’m a liberal and it’s nice to find an agreeable community to be a part of…
Why do you care?
So your values don’t line up with PZ’s or his army of bloggers? Yes likeminded people to PZ have taken hold of the atheist community, bause there are ALOT of liberal Atheists. I find you’re gibbering about this idiotic but for different reasons, I think you just just start your own damn blog network. If you think TAM and all these other events have been corrupted by what we view as civil rights or political correctness, then start you’re own events, programs and fund raisers. I’m sure you can find find a lot of people articulate enough to help you accomplish such a feet.
You’re battle with the Freethought Blog “Hivemind” is asinine, it favours a certain demographic of the Skeptic-Minded population, as do you! What I want to know is why there isn’t an alternative to FTB, and if there is where is it? And don’t say something snarky like “Reality is the alternative”
August 12, 2012 at 11:10 pm |
I would hope TF cares because the FTB network are using their considerable influence to try and get other skeptics fired and ostracized for EXTREMELY tame criticisms.
Did you read Michael Paytons tweet? He said that the content on the FTB network was “unreadable”. That was it.
In my mind, that makes it one of the most dangerous groups in the skeptic movement if they’re willing to so personally damage someone for such a mild criticism.
Given the epithets I’ve seen PZ and co hurl at other skeptics they disagree with, what do you think would be an appropriate response to that?
August 10, 2012 at 5:13 pm |
Thunderf00t:
“Spite, Revenge, and Childish Feuding For The Win!”
August 10, 2012 at 5:27 pm |
FTB (PZ Myers et al):
“Infantile, vindictive, bullies”
The atheist community stands behind Thunderf00t’s right to express his ideas without censorship by those who don’t agree with him.
August 10, 2012 at 8:07 pm |
Speak for yourself. TF is in the wrong here.
August 10, 2012 at 9:00 pm |
Oh, do you own the atheist community now, Bullies? Who died and made you our Official Atheist Spokesperson™?
August 10, 2012 at 11:18 pm |
Are you saying we are in the need of the Soviet-style approach? Just let that guard down. Show you true colors…
August 10, 2012 at 5:19 pm |
Hey Thunderf00t, while you were swimming a while back I went through your stuff and made copies of your house keys. You don’t have to worry though, because I don’t fucking steal shit. Never have done, never will.
Anyway, I went in and took some photos of your more questionable decorating choices and I’m going to publish them with commentary to make you look foolish in revenge for something I felt insulted by a couple months ago.
Cool?
August 10, 2012 at 9:02 pm |
Thunderf00t invited me to his house one time, and I figured out which window’s lock was broken. When he permanently kicked me out of his house, I decided to break in so I eavesdrop on all of his personal, private moments. I used the window that wasn’t locked, so I didn’t have to break anything. I didn’t steal anything, though! I’m NOT a thief. I may break into people houses, but HOW DARE you accuse me of burglary.
August 10, 2012 at 9:30 pm |
Ooh! Yours was better than mine, with the invitation and the finding a way back in and the getting kicked out and all. Does that make you a bully?
August 10, 2012 at 5:22 pm |
If I hadn’t received pretty much the same treatment on Pharyngula this week I might not be here today posting this. My original sin was posting a grievance, in a thread asking us to post our grievances, stating that you can’t seem to post on PZs site unless you were in complete agreement or you would be instantly attacked by the clique that runs the joint. Of course I was instantly attacked which led to me trying to explain my point and then finally fighting back when the plague of fleas piled on to get their head pats and belly scratches from their wranglers. Now I have been informed that I am a privileged ageist abelist MRA. I guess being unwilling to be neutered and forced to conform doesn’t go over that well these days. I have spent my entire atheist life on the outside making a go of it alone so what makes them think I’m going to join some group who wants to program me to follow yet another structured set of rules and rituals? I had hoped to find a group in which I could belong and share solidarity, but I’m finding the price of admission is to high.
August 10, 2012 at 5:30 pm |
Actually you are in the majority.
Want to express your opinion without being censored or abused? Welcome to Thundef00t.org.
August 10, 2012 at 5:34 pm |
What exactly is your point? That it is ok to leak private conversations, because some commenters on pharyngula were mean to you? Or just to state that there are commenters, that are more vicious than necessary?
August 10, 2012 at 5:45 pm |
whats yours kurt? that its morally okay to turn a blind eye when someone is having their job threatened over a couple of tweets?
August 10, 2012 at 5:50 pm |
the fact that someone else did something wrong/unethical doesn’t excuse your behavior. You pulled a douche move there. FTB’s behavior neither justifies nor excuses it.
August 10, 2012 at 6:00 pm
As long as you take the same position on Julian Assange and Bradley Manning then at least you are being intellectually consistent. Personally I don’t have a problem with someone exposing wrongdoing to public view so if they were threatening a persons job and livelihood I have no problem with TFs actions at all. How is ignoring a wrong somehow morally right? Just to keep your hands clean?
August 10, 2012 at 6:00 pm
yeah, but the bottom line is sometimes such whistle-blowing behavior is the right thing to do and sometimes it’s not.
Sometimes the ends do justify the means, sometimes they don’t.
In this case, when someones job was at stake over a few tweets, I would say this is the lesser of two evils.
August 10, 2012 at 6:03 pm
Some legal advice for the FTB trolls:
If, and that’s a big IF, Thunderf00t re-clicked on the authorization link in his FTB WELCOME e-mail and the FTB server put him back on the mailing list, we can agree he was re-submitting a request to re-join the mailing list.
The fact that it was permitted without oversight by the FTB admin’s and against their intentions is entirely their fault. He followed a LEGITIMATE process to become a member of the mailing list. He is under no obligation to obtain any further approval. PERIOD.
To ‘hack’ is to obtain access via a deceptive or illegitimite route. I would assume he used his own name and e-mail address right?
Time to grow up people….
August 10, 2012 at 6:22 pm
Uh private conversations are still private conversations. It is not a (big) company or the government. These are a few people on the internet talking. If you think that there should be no privacy left for anyone, that can be your opinion. But then I have to challenge you, to make all your conversation public. And I mean everything.
August 10, 2012 at 6:34 pm
Whistle blowing would be a valid argument if FtBs had the power to get him fired. Despite the best efforts of the phawrongula crowd they have ‘evidence’ that Greg L supposedly tried to get some people fired and failed completely – surely if FtBs most psychotic attack dog cannot get someone they hate fired then no one can?
So I call bullshit Thunderf00t – you are trying to justify your accessing private emails after the fact and you know it. This is not the first anyone has known about this – you are trying to get damage limitation in first. Pretty shitty move.
August 10, 2012 at 6:46 pm
Haha. You never fail to produce, Thunderf00t. Talk about getting up on a cross.
Among the things we’ve learned that you don’t understand very well, whistleblowing will now be added to the list.
Your bravery has exposed the deep dark secret lying at the heart of FTB: they talk about stuff before posting it publicly.
For a guy that just shits poorly-considered nonsense into blog posts in a stream-of-consciousness diarrhea of bad ideas, I can see why reflection and study would be anathema to you, but you’ve hardly exposed anything that wasn’t already known.
Paranoia, narcissism, stupidity: the three legs of Thunderf00t Trutherism.
August 10, 2012 at 6:49 pm
“In this case, when someones job was at stake over a few tweets, I would say this is the lesser of two evils.”
What was said in the e-mails that wasn’t said publicly in blog posts? What did you reveal?
Looks like all you managed to show was that 1) FTB folks talk about potentially controversial issues before publicly posting and 2) you’re comically paranoid.
You have exposed nothing save the faults of your own character.
August 10, 2012 at 6:17 pm |
You mean like threatening to out someone because they disagreed with you on twitter? Even if that could harm them in ways you would never experience.
Your argument is that threatening someone’s job is bad. So bad that it forced you to crack the FTB listserve. But when you threaten someone’s job, privacy and nym, you’re a hero? That doesn’t scan.
You’re not a “whistleblower.” You’re just a guy with a grudge who doesn’t care about collateral damage. You are willing to hurt people because your ego was bruised.
August 10, 2012 at 6:37 pm
Absolutely – also he accessed the private emails way before the Payton thing. Unless TF is claiming paranormal powers of precognition his motives were anything but honourable.
August 12, 2012 at 11:24 pm
“You mean like threatening to out someone because they disagreed with you on twitter?”
Please post evidence of this. To the best of my knowledge TF only threatened to post the contents of an email exchange that would vindicate his accusation that Natalie Reed was lying.
Nowhere was it said that he would include the email address and he has not done that.
On the other hand FTB members have actually attempted to get Michael Payton fired.
I still don’t see how in your world, FT is the big bad for not doing something whereas FTB is fine for actually doing something.
August 12, 2012 at 10:39 am |
thunderf00t, are you claiming that FTB were conspiring to approach paytons employees?
If so what evidence have you? Maybe i’m missing something, but i haven’t seen any.
If not then that pretty much invalidates your claim.
Whether FTB are correct in their conclusions or not, whether they collectively decide on a response or not. they are free to comment on someones tweet.
August 12, 2012 at 2:13 pm
Yeah Thunder’
“Inquring minds need to know” !
August 10, 2012 at 5:47 pm |
Don’t know that there was a point per se, just that I agree with his assessment of Pharyngula, if not all of FTB. I have no problem with elbow throwing and kind of enjoy a spirited fight but the default position on PZs blog appears to be to assume a comment is an attack first then EVERYBODY pile on an browbeat the commenter into submission. Hell, I can’t even AGREE with a post over there without getting a ration of shit for it, and that was BEFORE I became a pariah for daring mention the hostility on the site.
August 10, 2012 at 6:00 pm |
With that I can agree a little. Some of the commenters there are hostile towards everything they disagree with. I rarely comment over there, just because someone might misunderstand, what I meant. Not worth the trouble, most of the time.
August 11, 2012 at 4:16 am
And that is pretty much what I have been doing for years over there, but if I am not allowed to participate in what sense am I a member of their community? How can you agree with most of the stated positions yet be too afraid to add your own voice to the mix? It’s their site so they will do as they please, I just don’t see how chasing people who agree with you away is a good thing for the advancement of atheism.
August 10, 2012 at 5:54 pm |
Some legal advice for the FTB trolls:
If, and that’s a big IF, Thunderf00t re-clicked on the authorization link in his FTB WELCOME e-mail and the FTB server put him back on the mailing list, we can agree he was re-submitting a request to re-join the mailing list.
The fact that it was permitted without oversight by the FTB admin’s and against their intentions is entirely their fault. He followed a LEGITIMATE process to become a member of the mailing list. He is under no obligation to obtain any further approval. PERIOD.
To ‘hack’ is to obtain access via a deceptive or illegitimite route. I would assume he used his own name and e-mail address right?
Time to grow up people.
August 10, 2012 at 5:55 pm |
Oh yes! Two wrongs always make one right! It´s mathematics and stuff. I do not care about their private conversations, I do not have read them all and I don´t know whats up with the guy who tweeted whatever it was that upset someone. This is entirely between that guy on twitter and the FTB lot, that took part in that. I do not have anything whatsoever to do with it and neither do you.You are not the freethought police. Being asshurt does not grant you the right to read and/or publish private conversations.
August 10, 2012 at 5:57 pm |
Pharyngula is self described as rude and crude – you’ll find yourself mocked and shat on if you make poor arguments. Sometimes if you make good arguments that some don’t like. So what?
If you want a community that licks your arse and never disagrees with you then Pharyngula is definitely not the place – sceptical communities in general will not tolerate dumb-asses.
Anyway got a link to the thread where you were demolished? No one seems able to provide one when asked….
August 10, 2012 at 6:23 pm |
I fucking LOVE rude and crude, I do my best work when I don’t have to worry about offending delicate sensibilities, what I don’t care for so much is that argumentation is NOT what they practice there – they shout down, they dissemble, they dismiss an entire argument on the flimsiest of pretexts all the while shrieking that YOU have to cite and link and scientifically prove every word YOU say. Before this last week I never thought I see so many strawmen beaten to death.
If you want the link to the grievance thread then I suggest you talk to PZ or anyone that may have archived it because PZ himself deleted it after 24 hours, so as far as I know, it’s gone.
August 10, 2012 at 7:22 pm |
Good well go back on there and argue? What is the issue – you don’t like the way they attack your argument?
I’ll admit I agree that I personally think that a lot of the commenters on there exist solely to try and do exactly what you describe. Best policy is to identify and ignore them and deal with any valid arguments against your position. The ones that just throw insults, well throw insults back if you want or just ignore.
Pharyngula is not the commenters and PZ is not their herder — more often than not they’ll disagree with him and his friends. AronRa’s wife Ilandra turned up and got a lot of shit despite PZ trying to stop them. So you are not alone 🙂
August 11, 2012 at 9:17 am |
i wonder if the grievence thread was a ploy to weed out dissenters? Especially seeing that it was deleted so quickly.
August 12, 2012 at 4:52 am
Well, it certainly weeded me out.
August 10, 2012 at 7:19 pm |
“If you want a community that licks your arse and never disagrees with you then Pharyngula is definitely not the place – sceptical communities in general will not tolerate dumb-asses. ”
From what I’ve seen, Pharyngula seems just the place if you want a community that licks your arse and never disagrees with you. You just have to stick to the Myers & Co party-line, and everyone will love you.
What most of the critics seem to want is a community and place where you can have civil, intelligent discussions and arguments, even if people have very different views and opinions. At least that’s something that I personally value, and actively sought when I first was made aware of this “movement”.
Unfortunately, this is not possible withing the FTB community, and even worse, the FTB community with Myers & Co in the front is actively working against this sort of atmosphere outside of their own site and smaller community.
Going after Payton, effectively trying to silence him by targeting his job and his position withing the community because he simply does not find the content on FTB to be good is a prime example of the sort of message FTB is sending – You either agree with us, or we will do our darnedest to get you expunged from the community, even if we have to use underhand methods.
This just reeks of political party purging, the kind you would see in Soviet, or inquisitors and witch hunters “cleansing the land”, and reminds me very little of a skeptical, free-thinking community.
August 10, 2012 at 8:23 pm |
Look up the phrase “collateral damage”, then get back to us.
August 10, 2012 at 8:27 pm |
TF even with his super secret access to the famous fives email archive could not find a single reference to targeting Paytons job. Did you notice that? What was his evidence that Paytons job was targeted – some people sent messages to CFI Canada that he should be sacked…. (No evidence of these messages by the way – should I trust TF on that one?)
Hmm you’d think if FtBs was orchestrating this campaign they would discuss it on their secret channel?
Maybe it was some fanboys and girls getting over excited and expressing their distaste in a not particularly productive way? So you have fuck-all evidence of a campaign for his job despite the smoking gun of internal emails.
August 10, 2012 at 10:04 pm
I never said that Myerz etc went after Payton’s job directly, I said that FTB did, meaning the FTB community. I’d be very surprised if Myerz or his closest personally conspired to have people fired.
However, what Myerz & Co personally do is that they facilitate an environment where hateful and vile behavior is encouraged, and then they paint the targets, and sit back and enjoy the show.
They know full well that several of their fans are going to cross the line, this is hardly the first case of the FTB community going after and harassing people IRL, as well you know. The actions from the FTB leadership in regards to this speaks volumes, they have either reacted with silence, or in some cases (Greg Laden), defense. Considering their sensitivity to harassment otherwise, again, the message is clear – do not openly disagree with us, or you will be the next target.
August 10, 2012 at 10:32 pm
ps. I think it’s worth pointing out, that from what I see the primary objective seems to not be to hurt people IRL, rather it seems to be to force people who voice disagreement into silence.
It’s just happens that in some cases, getting someone fired would effectively shut them up, and thus, mission accomplished.
August 10, 2012 at 10:46 pm
Hehe good luck in defining what the fuck the ‘FtBs community’ is to prop up that crappy argument. It is a free-for-all in terms of who reads it and how they react is up to them. Apart from a minuscule number of nutters who have been banned anyone can comment.
Your fear for their awesome power in silencing their critics is quite cute. How many people have they succeeded in getting fired – assuming I believe the hyperbole about Laden? Absolutely fuck all – no one. I think your point about their fearsome power and horde of winged commenters is somewhat bollocks.
August 10, 2012 at 10:52 pm
Ahh missed the second comment – so Acathode how many people have this fearsome FtBs beast scared into silence? I’m guessing you cannot find any.
It seems to me all Pharyngula has achieved with the polarising approach to scepticism (Yes I agree with you on that to a degree) is kicked up a hornets nest of nutcases and nitpickers. Who are determined to prove them irrelevant whingers while at the same time arguing they have immense power that will destroy the ‘movement’ – whatever that is.
August 10, 2012 at 11:44 pm
First of all, I simply fail to see what you base your complaint about the term “FTB-community” (I never used the term FfTB btw). The fact that almost anyone is free to comment simply doesn’t change this? There’s no secret that there are active and regular posters and commentators that together make up a community.
I just don’t see how this in any way is controversial or why I need to provide a definition? If you really want to press the issue though, the definition should be the same as we apply for other online communities originating from specific internet-sites or similar.
Second, I’ve never said that I fear Myerz or any other person from FTB. My concern is that they are causing damage, and are behaving like hypocrites. When you get shouted at for applying skepticism on claims made by prolific persons within a “skeptics movement”, my reaction can only be summarized as “…. WTF?”.
Third, I can’t say I can point to any specific case of anyone being silenced, but does it matter? Isn’t the knee-jerk reaction of “how do we shut this guy up?” bad enough? Especially within a movement that’s supposed to value free thinking, skepticism, and so on?
August 11, 2012 at 12:23 am
@Acathode, I just want to say that by claiming PZ bears any sort of responsibility for the (hypothetical) actions of his (possible) commenters, you’re echoing the same argument Charles Carreon made regarding the Internet’s response to his lawsuit against The Oatmeal.
August 12, 2012 at 6:10 pm
@stakkalee
Myerz knows what will happen when he paints the targets. He is not exempt of responsibility just because he is not doing the deeds himself, instead only suggest others do them for him.
August 10, 2012 at 5:30 pm |
I know it shouldn’t surprise me when someone openly brags about what a horrible person they are because they think it’s some kind of achievement, but it still does.
Thunderfoot, you’re a very small, sad dude. You have my pity.
August 10, 2012 at 5:34 pm |
[…] has the technical details, including logs for evidence, in case you want them. Thunderf00t has confessed to breaching our privacy, but of course he’s trying to spin everything to make himself look […]
August 10, 2012 at 6:03 pm |
des·pi·ca·ble/diˈspikəbəl/
Adjective:
Deserving hatred and contempt
I stopped reading right there. He re-clicked an invite to the mailing list. He didn’t shoot his neighbours children. Well, not that we know of anyway.
August 10, 2012 at 6:49 pm |
Say that is all he did then you might have a point — actually no when he found the link still worked a reasonable person knowing they are not allowed to view that organisations emails anymore would inform them of the breach.
So what did he do? Well it appears he happily received the email while posting lots of hate for the FtB’ers on here… I’m sure he had no ill intention!
When FtBs found the breach as he had been forwarding emails he should not have received to others what did he do? He tried to re-subscribe and found he was now blocked…
Hmm maybe they discovered his deceit – how can he cover it up? Yeah he ‘knew’ FtBs were planning a take down of someone and were going to get them fired all along. Honest! Unless he has the power of precognition that is a pile of horse shit. The ‘conspiracy’ to get Payton fired is not that clear despite his access to secret emails. The bit about making him a pariah is understandable given Ed Brayton had heard he was accessing their private mail! So much for a smoking gun from his heroic whistle blowing.
So pretty despicable behaviour from someone supposedly honest and trustworthy.
August 10, 2012 at 7:32 pm |
Oh come on. If you found that you could receive emails from people bitching about you behind your back, would you tell them? Really? Especially considering how they fucked him about a few weeks back. Bollocks.
I don’t care if you think it’s immoral to eavesdrop, under the same conditions I’d bet a vast majority of us would/have in the past. It’s not some heinous “despicable” crime, it’s curiosity.
August 10, 2012 at 8:25 pm
Personal curiosity is one thing. Sharing said information with the world is something else entirely. He has shown that he has no qualms about sharing private conversations with the public… now all we have is his word that he won’t share other personal information, information that could very well harm other people, like Natalie Reed?
Collateral damage. All over some butt-hurt response to people talking behind his back. It’s pathetic.
August 10, 2012 at 8:35 pm
So your defence is you would be a shit in those circumstances and think I would be a shit in those circumstances therefore it is not fair to call TF a shit?
Nice logic and BTW I am a person with a profession in IT. If I ever accessed previous employers emails I’d rightly expect to be shat on from a great height regardless of how badly I think I was treated by that employer.
August 10, 2012 at 8:43 pm
I don’t want to go too crazy here, but for a minute let’s assume TF was genuinely concerned about this guy’s job being at stake. He has information regarding it, and the people who may be responsible. What would the harm be in telling him? As long as he removed the personal information first, there is no harm. Which he said he did “(naturally no personal details were passed on). Michael did not want to know, he did not need to know that personal info.”
Just because he shared some bitchy comments made behind a guy’s back with the subject of the bitchfest, does not mean he would spread information that would put someone at risk. “all you have is his word” yes, and the same goes for every single other person on that mailing list. All you have is their word, and some of them have posted made private emails public without consent before.
August 10, 2012 at 9:32 pm
Yeah so try empathising with Natalie Reeds position where she is at the mercy of TF’s honesty and integrity in not releasing personal information. Given he dishonestly accessed emails would you trust him with information that important? Especially when he had some spat on Twitter calling Natalie a liar?
August 10, 2012 at 9:46 pm
Do you ever read stuff before replying? This is becoming a pattern.
“Just because he shared some bitchy comments made behind a guy’s back with the subject of the bitchfest, does not mean he would spread information that would put someone at risk. “all you have is his word” yes, and the same goes for every single other person on that mailing list. All you have is their word, and some of them have posted made private emails public without consent before.”
I trust all my closest friends with my life, but I wouldn’t trust any of them alone with my pint. These are on very different levels, sharing a private bitching is a totally different thing to putting someone at risk like that. Even if he called her a liar on twitter once. Have you never called anyone a liar? If so, would you wish harm on them people?
August 10, 2012 at 11:14 pm |
Exactly. And one or two skepchicks can clutch their pearls and play victim to the tune of “he MIGHT leak my info!!11!!” all they want, but until he actually does it he is not guilty of it. He may get caught up in drama at times but he’s no doc dropper.
August 10, 2012 at 5:37 pm |
Also, to borrow from Christian mythology: Pa rum pum pum pum.
August 10, 2012 at 5:39 pm |
Thunderf00t,
I was with you in this spat against FTBs until this fiasco. If what Lousy Canuck wrote here is true… http://freethoughtblogs.com/lousycanuck/2012/08/10/what-thunderf00t-did-and-how/
…then you’re a slimebag.
Regardless of how this pans out legally, sneaking back into a confidential listserve is immoral, unethical and frankly, very creepy. It’s got a stalkeresque quality to it.
You are not a whistleblower so rinse yourself of that fantasy.
Your WDPLAC series was epic and even life changing for many people.
Get back to that ASAP or admit you’ve jumped the shark and move on to other endeavours.
Best wishes!
August 10, 2012 at 5:54 pm |
Wow.
Reading this was like watching a bunch of anti vaxxers dance around proclaiming their love for Jenny McCarthy or Meryl Dorey.
The implosion of TF and his post rationalizations would be hilarious if it wasn’t so sad.
Where did the critical thinking go? Do logical fallacies just scream from TF’s excuses.
So sad.
August 10, 2012 at 5:59 pm |
I particularly like how you addressed nothing in this comment but still seem condescending. Please, do go on.
August 10, 2012 at 5:55 pm |
Some legal advice for the FTB trolls:
If, and that’s a big IF, Thunderf00t re-clicked on the authorization link in his FTB WELCOME e-mail and the FTB server put him back on the mailing list, we can agree he was re-submitting a request to re-join the mailing list.
The fact that it was permitted without oversight by the FTB admin’s and against their intentions is entirely their fault. He followed a LEGITIMATE process to become a member of the mailing list. He is under no obligation to obtain any further approval. PERIOD.
To ‘hack’ is to obtain access via a deceptive or illegitimite route. I would assume he used his own name and e-mail address right?
Time to grow up people…
August 10, 2012 at 6:01 pm |
Wonderful. Are you going to follow up with some ethical and moral advice for Thunderf00t? Such as mentioning an obligation he might have to fellow humans to respect privacy and confidentiality?
August 10, 2012 at 6:07 pm |
If other members of the mailing list can post e-mails from the mailing list, why couldn’t Thunderf00t? After all he would have been a valid member whether they liked it or not.
August 10, 2012 at 6:13 pm |
Because the fucking disclaimer states, that the author of the mail should be asked. And no he was not a “vaild member”. He was banned and then rejoined without anyone noticing, not exactly vaild. Even if it was not illegal, it is in the least unethical => invalid from an ethical point of view. But I don´t think you will get that, you comments here indicate a very limited capabilty of understanding the problem at hand.
August 10, 2012 at 6:20 pm
Sorry, FTB members have posted private e-mails from the list and in violation of this ‘Disclaimer’ you refer to. I suppose you have been just as vocal holding them to the same yardstick?
August 10, 2012 at 6:28 pm
I do, that was wrong, too. And I´m sure they sorted that out. Does not change the fact, that TF behaves like an enormous asshole. That you are unable or unwilling to understand that, and the difference to real whistleblowers just shows a concerning lack of morality.
August 10, 2012 at 8:56 pm
Can you give example of mails from the list that were posted? That mail from Greg Laden that Justin Griffith posted was not from the list.
August 10, 2012 at 6:22 pm |
No. He was kicked off the network. No matter how easy it was for him to regain access to the backchannel, it was still unauthorized access.
On a different note: Do you decide to act according to the behaviour of others? Is it okay to do something shitty just because others have done it? Do you stop to think whether you should do a thing or do you go ahead and do it simply because you can?
August 10, 2012 at 8:28 pm |
Screaming “others did it too!” still does not justify was TF did. It’s like right-wingers who, when confronted with the fact that Fox News is biased, scream “MSNBC does it too!” Or Christians who, when confronted with the fact that they follow dogma blindly, scream “Atheism is just as much of a religion, too!”
August 10, 2012 at 6:15 pm |
I’m sorry but you’re not correct. They removed him from the mailing list; they no longer wanted him to be a member. The fact that the software they were using is poorly designed, and that they weren’t 100% familiar with the way it operates doesn’t absolve TF of his responsibility to respect another person or group’s clearly-stated desire for privacy.
August 10, 2012 at 7:08 pm |
It’s a good thing Tfoot’s blog is hosted by wordpress. Were it a private blog with TF as webmaster, everyone would have to go change their passwords.
If they didn’t and TF decided to use their sign-up info to hack their emails, they really couldn’t complain, right?
August 10, 2012 at 7:27 pm |
“everyone would have to go change their passwords.”
Not really. WordPress passes passwords through an MD5 hash. The hash is stored, not the password.
When logging in to an account, your password is passed through the hash and the hash values are compared.
This is why good database/script design never stores passwords in the clear.
Knowing is half the battle.
August 10, 2012 at 8:29 pm |
So if you leave one of your windows unlocked, I can break into your house without any repercussions, right?
August 10, 2012 at 6:06 pm |
I seriously have lost respect for you. Instead of just walking away you’ve turned this into a circus with you being the main attraction.
And now it seems you’ve possibly done somethign illegal.
Just give it up and go back to doing your videos.
So you’re not a fit with FtB, big freaking deal! I probably would not even be a fit and yet I read some of their material.
Get back at doing what you do best and move on from this!
August 10, 2012 at 6:09 pm |
FTB trolls you can stop pretending now.
August 10, 2012 at 8:30 pm |
Do you have any valid counter-arguments? Or will you just scream “FTB trolls!!111” whenever somebody shows the least bit of support for FTB? Grow up.
August 10, 2012 at 10:12 pm |
Sometimes it’s ‘FTB bullies!!111’ instead. Give them a little credit for variation.
August 10, 2012 at 6:11 pm |
At this point, we can label FTB not only “not free” but patently irrational. They need to be abandoned and in large numbers. Given the threats to peoples’ job, engaging them is not safe. Put their site into your firewalls as a blocked site so your computer is incapable of even accidentally hitting their site.
August 10, 2012 at 6:20 pm |
Will you say the same about TF since he also threatened people’s jobs? (As well as their security)
August 10, 2012 at 6:22 pm |
Utter nonsense. Thunderf00t did no such thing.
August 10, 2012 at 6:56 pm |
So I take it you didn’t read Natalie Reed’s post?
“This led to something really creepy and scary when Thunderf00t began threatening to publish the confidential contents of FTB’s private listserv, to “prove” that I’d been “lying” about his behaviour. When I reminded him of the ethical problems with this, and hinted at the real danger it poses to me, he laughed and suggested that his treatment by PZ and FTB as a whole justified any actions he wanted to take.”
August 11, 2012 at 10:12 am
Pssst, “confidential content” does not mean “private information”. What is said in the mails is not the same as email, IP… You know, like Jason “lousy canuck” did…
August 11, 2012 at 12:51 am |
Good advice, but I abandoned FTB about a year ago. Don’t miss it, either…
August 10, 2012 at 6:12 pm |
Who the fuck cares about any of this? I wish you and PZ would both move on from this tedious fueding, this he-said-she-said shit. None of it matters! Go out and enjoy the sunshine!
It’s all irrelevant bullshit and makes you both look bad.
August 10, 2012 at 6:28 pm |
Bullies need to be held to account. FTB is doing this to many individuals. The Internet is littered with horror stories about the behavious of FTB’s members. It’s time someone stood up to them and was heard far and wide.
August 10, 2012 at 6:43 pm |
How incredible that you’re whining about bullying on a post where the goofball you’re defending sneaked back into a private listserv after being booted in order to spread confidential correspondences around the internet.
Your complaint about being “bullied” is the exact same level of self-indulgent whining as is contained in the Christian complaint that they’re being persecuted when people say “Happy Holidays.”
You guys say a lot of really stupid stuff. Pointing out that you say a lot of stupid stuff is not bullying. The fact that there are consequences for saying lots of stupid stuff is not the same as being bullied. You are childish whiners.
August 13, 2012 at 9:50 am |
Sort of like how Elevatorgate amounted to Almost Raped™?
August 13, 2012 at 9:54 am
it did not. The statement was: “this kind of behavior may make women uncomfortable, and does not help you get laid”. From there the straw men started growing and we ended up with conclusions such as yours.
August 13, 2012 at 12:06 pm
Strangely, Phil Plait (inter alia) entertained these “strawmen”.
August 13, 2012 at 12:26 pm
And let’s not even get started on the numerous allusions to “rape culture” (whatever that might be).
August 10, 2012 at 8:31 pm |
Show evidence for your claims. If the Internet is “littered with horror stores about the behavior of FTB members,” then surely you can provide a few examples, no? Each with valid evidence to back them up?
August 10, 2012 at 8:41 pm |
Don’t tempt them or someone will flop out phawrongula as an example. Yes a number of the commenters here have spent valuable hours of their life documenting all the wrongs committed by FtB’ers. Pretty evidence light it may be and stuffed full of interpretation of others intentions but they are oh so proud of it.
August 10, 2012 at 10:11 pm |
Oh no, someone’s feelings have been hurt on the internet, call the police!
Seriously, there are bigger problems. None of this actually matters, it’s a hugh waste of time and energy.
A plague on both your houses!
August 10, 2012 at 6:17 pm |
TF, I’ll repeat – do you believe you’ve acted ethically in this matter? Why did you try to re-access the listserv after you were explicitly removed from it?
August 10, 2012 at 6:25 pm |
I assume you want him to volunteer an admission in public as there is no actual evidence of anything.
If he did click on an invitation to join and was accepted then he would be in the clear. What FTB admins did or did not want is irrelevant.
August 10, 2012 at 6:32 pm |
You’re free to assume whatever you wish; I’d argue that the fact he fowarded some of the messages to a third party is enough of an admission on his part. I’m more interested in Why he decided to regain access to someplace he clearly wasn’t wanted, and whether he feels his actions have been ethical.
And again, you’re incorrect. The stated desires of the FTB admins is very much relevant, from an ethical standpoint at least, and potentially from a legal standpoint as well.
August 10, 2012 at 6:27 pm |
while a load of TFB readers/bloggers are trolling this blog, I have a question. What is this “movement” you’re all a part of. It seems like a chunk of atheists have taken to calling atheism some sort of movement, rather than just a lack of belief.
What are your goals in this “movement”, and how is it different to any other crazy religion? Should “Movement” be capitalised? Is it the name of your new religion. I really can’t tell.
August 10, 2012 at 6:29 pm |
You mean FTB bloggers trolling Thunderf00t’s blog?
August 10, 2012 at 6:30 pm |
You can recognise them from their foul language.
August 10, 2012 at 6:48 pm |
Uh oh, is vulgarity forbidden on this site? I guess I better read the rules:)
August 10, 2012 at 8:11 pm |
Cunt.
August 10, 2012 at 8:23 pm
OUCH! My fucking ears!
August 10, 2012 at 11:27 pm
That definitely would have gotten you banned at FTB 🙂
August 10, 2012 at 6:35 pm |
I use bad grammar & spelling because I’m lazy. If it’s a good enough excuse for Greg, it’s good enough for me.
August 10, 2012 at 6:58 pm |
Apparently FoulingTheBed drones think atheism/scepticism starts and ends with their silly little septic tank in the tubes.
August 10, 2012 at 6:39 pm |
Thunderf00t, at this point it doesn’t matter if you are right about FTB being run by a bunch of group-thinking bullies or what have you – whatever wrong they have done does not justify what you have admitted to doing here. Two wrongs don’t make a right.
Justified or not you were kicked off of FTB, and it was pretty clear that you no longer had their permission to access their private listserv when they removed you from it the first time. By your own admission you did so anyways. Even if whatever method you used wasn’t illegal, that doesn’t make it ethical.
Just apologize and do what you should have done a long time ago – move on. Please show us that you’re better than this.
August 10, 2012 at 6:42 pm |
[…] intrusion into the FTB private mailing list (details here), Thunderf00t himself has now helpfully provided that: So a week or so ago a guy called Michael Payton who works for CFI Canada (Center for Inquiry) put […]
August 10, 2012 at 7:23 pm |
I wonder how much FTB makes every time ThunderF00t posts a blog. That’s the fourth or fifth reply now, and not one of them addresses the guy whose job was apparently threatened.
August 10, 2012 at 7:44 pm |
His job *wasn’t* threatened. If it was, Thunderf00t could have presented clear evidence of that, since he has our emails. He hasn’t, because nobody ever said such a thing.
August 10, 2012 at 9:01 pm |
I see. I suppose if that was mentioned in the emails he would have posted it here. I guess that if someone did make that phone call they wouldn’t just own up to it anyway. I’d like to hear what this CFI guy has to say about it though.
August 10, 2012 at 9:04 pm
Shit. By phone call I meant message (or however the hell they supposedly threatened his job). I need to stop deciding to rewrite my comments half way through.
August 11, 2012 at 10:03 am
I agree – given Payton’s supposed near job loss is being used by TF as justification then I think a statement from him could either destroy or shore up TFs position.
August 10, 2012 at 8:51 pm |
It is quite clear the only ‘evidence’ TF has is an assertion that CFI Canada got ‘messages’ (By pigeon maybe?) calling for Paytons dismissal. He juxtaposed this to some quotes from the secret email list showing people on there were not happy Payton dismissed them all with one comment. This was not so super secret given it was publicly posted to FtBs.
The fact remains that he accessed the email list way before all this Payton stuff kicked off – no explanation on how he managed to see into the future and know his illegally accessing emails would become so useful. Or not so useful given he found no evidence of a conspiracy.
August 10, 2012 at 6:51 pm |
Wow. This definitely is a new low. Hacking their mailing list and spilling its contents? And you are seriously wondering why no one wants to work with you anymore? Captain Ahab, anyone?
August 10, 2012 at 6:54 pm |
Captain Ahab hacked Moby Dicks email account?
August 10, 2012 at 6:56 pm |
I am pretty sure he would have 😉
August 11, 2012 at 1:37 am |
It’s hilarious how I keep seeing this repeated over, and over. Does it not occur to any of you group thinkers that contrary to the propaganda the emails were shared with TF by a friend of his who has access to them? That’s far more likely than imagining TF is some sort of uber leet hacker. lol
August 11, 2012 at 3:16 am |
Yes, but if I had to write all of that it would have killed the spontaneity of the joke.
August 11, 2012 at 3:18 am |
I’m sorry but you’re incorrect. I’ve you’ve read Jason Thibeault’s account of what happened you’ll see that TF resubscribed to the listserv using his original invitation message (requiring no ‘leet skillz) and put his own Hotmail address, the same one with which he’d originally registered. If you’re claiming a third party performed those actions they still forwarded the mail to TF’s account. If a friend of his forwarded him the later Payton emails it would be unnecessary, because according to the server logs at that time he was still registered to the listserv using his original email address. Also, why would this hypothetical friend forward TF emails about Payton? Wouldn’t it make more sense to forward them to Payton directly?
August 10, 2012 at 6:53 pm |
I have always enjoyed various flavors of Christians mucking it up and duking it out thinking smugly to myself, “Don’t they see how stupid they sound?”
Sure sucks to be thinking the same thing now with a large contingent of intelligent people I agree with on such things as science, rationality and the lack of the supernatural.
August 10, 2012 at 10:08 pm |
It means we’re moving up into the big leagues. Our very first schism, yay!
August 11, 2012 at 1:08 am |
It’s fun to pretend that you’re superior when you refuse to take sides on an issue, huh?
August 10, 2012 at 7:00 pm |
Remember when PZ, et al. were ready to give Peter Gleick a medal for his much more serious trespass? Oh yeah. How’s that petard feel?
Schadenfreude aside, you made a mistake TF. I hope you can admit it and move past this drama someday.
August 10, 2012 at 7:01 pm |
I want to clarify something here: You say that some people called CFI Canada and wanted Payton fired and that some people complained about Payton on the back channel. You are not claiming that these are the same people or that anyone on the backchannel actually called for Payton to be fired or tried to organize any effort to get him fired, right?
Lots of people are reading this and interpreting it to mean that the back channel was being used to conspire to get Payton removed from his position, but you never actually say this. I want to confirm that you avoided saying this on purpose.
August 10, 2012 at 7:15 pm |
This is an important point. The post hoc rationalization justifying TF’s absurdly horrible behavior is that he did it to save Payton’s job. As of yet he has not produced 1) anything from the back channel about Payton that was not stated publicly on FTB posts and 2) any evidence that the people calling for Payton’s job were FTB bloggers or somehow motivated by FTB bloggers.
It’s mealy-mouthed horseshit so TF can put himself up on a cross and pretend he’s a martyr fighting back against the evil force of FTB.
August 10, 2012 at 7:14 pm |
Just remembered, PZ Myers, and the ‘phone hacking’ scandal.
http://skepchick.org/2008/03/audio-of-pz-myers-crashing-the-expelled-teleconference/
August 10, 2012 at 7:20 pm |
Haha, what is wrong with you? Do you really think this is similar to you sneaking back onto that listserv and publishing a bunch of e-mails that don’t offer any information that wasn’t already known?
In order to start you along the path of understanding the difference, try to consider the fact that the phone conference was set up by a PR firm. Instead of a press conference, however, the Stein crew muted all the journalists phones and chose easy questions to answer. Instead of a press conference, it was an advertisement. PZ did not obtain any private information, all he did was make it so that his line wasn’t muted and he asked some questions in a public forum.
Why you think these things are similar is beyond me. What private information was disseminated that would not have been but for PZ’s speaking over the phone at a press conference called by a PR firm working for Ben Stein?
August 10, 2012 at 7:40 pm |
Did Ben Stein invite him to participate? Do you think he would have? So was it ethical of PZ to barge in on a conference call that he was not invited to nor would have been had he asked? Just because it was a prank that we all find amusing doesn’t make it any more or less excusable just because you want it to be so.
August 10, 2012 at 7:47 pm |
This is an amusing attempt at diverting the conversation from TF’s lack of ethics. The two situations are not remotely comparable and it’s clear that TF is trying to charge PZ with hypocrisy.
TF sneaked into a private e-mail system and tried to humiliate the participants by revealing the contents. He has not revealed anything substantively that wasn’t already publicly published by members of FTB, so it was just an attempt to harm them. He also forwarded all of that info to an unknown number of third parties who can do whatever they want with it.
PZ used a number the PR firm gave over an open phone channel to ruin their attempt at a faux-press conference. Whether or not that was ethical, and I would say it wasn’t a good thing to do, but given the amount of harm caused (basically zero) and the fact that it was a public discussion, it was a minor transgression, if at all.
The major point, however, is that there’s absolutely nothing similar about the cases. TF seems to be arguing that by messing with Ben Stein’s public press conference, which he was invited to, just not supposed to speak, means that he’s a hypocrite for criticizing the stealing of private correspondences. It’s a really stupid point and, again, a very childish argument.
“Wah, wah, PZ did something that kind of seems wrong if you don’t think about it too hard, therefore he can’t say the jackass move I pulled was bad.”
It’s basically the equivalent of arguing that someone who stole a candy bar can’t criticize and armed robber.
August 10, 2012 at 8:13 pm
True, but you can’t ethically ignore the theft of the candy bar just because a gun was not used in the commission of the crime. You can argue that the severity of the crime was less and you’d be right, but you can’t argue that a crime was NOT committed. PZ may have only sought to embarrass Ben Stein and that may or may not have resulted in further harm (ie lower attendance at his awful movie hence less box office receipts) but what has the real harm been from the Thunderfoot debacle? Maybe we should wait and see before we assume real harm.
So FTB has been embarrassed, so far that is exactly like the conference call.
August 10, 2012 at 8:30 pm
This is why it’s distraction, though. Whatever PZ did with Ben Stein, what does it have to do with Thunderf00t? Why do you think he brought it up?
Clearly he’s trying to muddy the waters and kick up a bunch of bullshit to make what he did look nothing out of the ordinary.
If I were Ben Stein, I’d probably be pissed. At risk of going into that situation in too much detail, there’s the added fact that he tried to use the guise of a press conference to essentially spray propaganda around. That’s a cynical manipulation of the notion of a free press, and were it a political event, not some bullshit PR stunt, I would consider it an embarrassment if a reporter DIDN’T try to gum up the works.
As for damage being caused, it was a good thing one of the third parties TF spread the e-mails to alerted FTB, because it looks like any real harm will be avoided. That’s hardly an argument in TF’s favor, and now someone like Natalie Reed has to live with the fact that an unknowable number of people have her true identity and can reveal it at any time. That’s way worse than anything that could possibly have resulted from PZ speaking up at Ben Stein’s public press conference.
August 10, 2012 at 9:05 pm
Well TC, you are open minded and argue well and honestly, and I respect that. We might not see eye to eye on every detail but it’s been nice sparring with you.
August 10, 2012 at 9:25 pm
Good times.
August 10, 2012 at 7:38 pm |
I’m glad to see you’re finally engaging with this comment thread. Your post has raised several questions and I’d love to get your answer to some or all of them.
1) There seems to be some confusion as to whether anyone directly connected with FTB was calling for Michael Payton to be fired. Since you have access to the backchannel emails can you clarify that no one directly related to FTB was calling for Mr. Payton to be fired?
2) After your termination from FTB you regained access to the listserv, well before any conversation regarding Mr. Payton had occurred. Why did you attempt to (and succeed at!) access a private system you were no longer welcome to access?
3) Do you feel that you have behaved ethically with regards to the FTB listserv and the other members of FTB that aren’t engaged in this feud?
4) Natalie Reed, in particular, has expressed concern about her real name being published. What guarantee can you give her, beyond your word, that you won’t pass that information along?
5) You’ve already forwarded some of these backchannel emails to one or more third parties. Can you tell us how many unauthorized people now have access to this data?
Thank you very much for reading this comment. I look forward to your replies.
August 10, 2012 at 7:43 pm |
I second this. Please answer, Thunder!
August 10, 2012 at 7:48 pm |
I’ll third and stand with you two in solidarity as he never answers any of these.
August 10, 2012 at 8:54 pm
Answer please!
August 10, 2012 at 7:50 pm |
Also seconded! I would add, how he can guarantee, that, if the case, none of the people he forwarded e-mails to, treat the information they got unethical.
I hope it´s not people like Bullies or LightninLew, because they seem to be 12 years old, and do not understand, whats wrong about reading private conversations not meant for your eyes.
August 10, 2012 at 8:21 pm |
You seem to be 12 years old, and do not understand, what a comma, is, for.
Seriously? I’m childish for not giving a crap about eavesdropping? I never said I couldn’t see what is wrong with it, it’s just such a minute problem that I don’t give a shit.
August 10, 2012 at 8:58 pm |
Sorry for the mess with the commas. If you don´t give a shit, why are you commenting in the first place?
August 10, 2012 at 9:11 pm |
I only said I don’t care about the eavesdropping. I do care that there are people on the internet who disagree with me and misuse commas.
August 10, 2012 at 7:21 pm |
Wow. You FTB’ers need to xenu it down a notch. TF didn’t break into NORAD; he eavesdropped onto your petty circle jerk ego-cult using a huge gaping hole your IT guys apparently didn’t care too much about. You got caught with your pants down, and now you’re embarrassed and someone has to pay. Not only that, but everyone apparently must agree that your pants being pulled down is not comical, but an affront on humanity itself.
See, this is a problem with unchecked self-aggrandizing : Like children, you aggrandize everything including criticisms and affronts, real or imaginary. Scientology does this. They think they are “the most ethical people” and believe they are humanity’s one and only hope for survival, so of course even the most minute criticism becomes a galactic war for the future of mankind. It’s ridiculous, and you’re doing the same thing. Get over yourselves.
PZ painted himself into a corner by doubling down when confronted with opposition to his perceived authority. This is an almost instinctive response we all do from time to time. The problem is he doubled down very definitively and publicly in front of his troops. Now he is too emotionally invested in his position to back down and perceives his reputation to be at play. The only place left to go is to aggrandize the situation in order to validate his irrational overreaction.
Never go full retard, PZ.
August 10, 2012 at 7:25 pm |
Got caught with their pants down? Doing what?
August 10, 2012 at 7:40 pm |
Acting like a bunch of schoolgirls fantasizing about character assassination and the social demise of their critics. Acting like a herd of foolish and irrational groupies. More importantly though, acting in a way which exposes the complete hypocrisy in calling themselves “free thinkers”.
August 10, 2012 at 8:36 pm |
So you admit TF didn’t find anything of substance. So what justifies the unethical break-in to a mailing list that he was specifically removed from?
August 10, 2012 at 9:41 pm
Define “of substance”.
Things that are illegal? Dangerous? that puts people at risk?
No.
Things that embarrass and discredit FTB, causing this tidal wave of faux-outrage? Yes.
August 10, 2012 at 10:29 pm
I’ll define “substance” in this case as anything that wasn’t already known or published publicly on FTB.
What did we learn? That Ed Brayton doesn’t like Thunderf00t? Shocking revelation.
August 10, 2012 at 10:50 pm
So if nothing was really done, then explain this outrage contest from the FTBers. You’re obviously not content in not liking TF, you want everyone else to not like him too.
August 10, 2012 at 10:07 pm |
And you can tell all that from the excerpts you’ve read here? Because I’ve read them, too, and I totally don’t see that.
August 10, 2012 at 11:32 pm |
Outwardly playing the upper ground moralists, yet inwardly behaving not better than shysters. For the sake of the “greater atheist movement” this nonsense needs to get exposed. For sure…
August 10, 2012 at 7:41 pm |
Yeah I am outraged because I was caught with my pants down…. I am not even on the damn list, nor do I have any personal relations with anyone on FTB. And I still consider it an unethical and disgusting thing to do. That you people can not understand this, or the difference to whistleblowing is beyond me. But I agree now more than ever with Jamy Ian Swiss: Just being an atheist does not make you smart, or a good person.
August 10, 2012 at 8:34 pm |
“I am not even on the damn list, nor do I have any personal relations with anyone on FTB”
So feel free to ignore my criticism.
“Just being an atheist does not make you smart, or a good person”.
Very true. Just like being on FTB doesn’t make your gossip a matter of national security.(Note that i’m not necessarily referring to you when i say “your”).
TF didn’t blow up a children’s hospital.
What’s happening now is just a big outrage contest. Who can be the most outraged at what TF did?!? When what he did was more along the lines of farting in a crowded elevator.
Was it impolite? Sure! Unethical? In the broadest sense, maybe, depending on who you ask. Illegal? Probably not.
August 10, 2012 at 7:27 pm |
Paul, just a few comments.
It’s not a movement. Its a bunch of autistic wanker wannabes on the net.
PZ is an immature failure in life. If he was worth anything to science he would not be spending his life on the net. Extend that to his other friends.
You have woken from a nightmare. Congratulations.
August 10, 2012 at 7:57 pm |
How many research papers have you published? Are you even a scientist? On how many conferences have you spoken? What have you done for the atheist/skeptic movement?
Or is it in the end just a projection of your situation, if you call others autistic wankers and failures in life?
August 10, 2012 at 8:37 pm |
It’s ableist language like that (using autism as some kind of slur) that reveals the lack of maturity you people share. As a father of an autistic child, I say this: shame on you.
August 11, 2012 at 1:17 am |
These people go on FTB and use language such as this all the time, get called out on it and rightfully bashed for it, then come here and cry that FTB bullied them.
Fucking disgusting.
August 13, 2012 at 7:56 am |
Yes. Because no one on FTB ever exploits real or perceived mental disabilities on the part of their opponents. Never ever ever.
August 10, 2012 at 8:56 pm |
I’m with TerranRich, it is clear who is the immature failure in life.
August 10, 2012 at 10:17 pm |
God what a mess you people are. No I’m not a scientist and yes I’ve published a little and spoken at several professional conferences and….does that make me a better person? No. Here’s some news for you, it’s an irrelevance. No one cares and no one reads it, you silly people.
Ableist? What a whining bunch of pathetic victims you are. Oh do blame the patriarchy or any other left wing made up excuse for your own inabilities.
So tell me, Someone runs around calling people all sorts of names, happily revealing the IP addresses or emails of people who get into fights with him and then he complains about this? I rather think the only one destroying his reputation is him.
And no, I’m happily not part of the mongo retard atheist movement, get a life you sweaty chinless losers, you are not a movement, you are not significant, you are merely a joke.
August 11, 2012 at 1:18 am |
Hahahaha.
August 10, 2012 at 7:31 pm |
If you want to ban someone from a mailing list on “mailman” and not just unsubscribe the user then you have to set the variable “ban_list” with the email addresses to be banned. Without that it is not a banning event but just an “unsubscription” which is commonly assumed to be a voluntary decision, hence anyone can subscribe again.
The software is not at fault here, it offers all the instruments to ban *or* to unsubscribe someone and names them accordingly to commonly understood jargon terms. The admins in this case have chosen to unsubscribe and not to ban, whether on purpose or by ignorance does not change the end result.
My opinion is that to subscribe again it was a bit silly and not exactly the way to take the high road, but I doubt it can be called hacking.
August 10, 2012 at 7:42 pm |
Wilya, it’s unauthorized access to a private mail system. The fact that the admins lacked complete knowledge of how the software functions doesn’t absolve TF of his responsibility to respect another person or group’s privacy. It’s not “hacking” in the strictest definition of the word, but it fits several looser definitions and it doesn’t change the fact that it was unauthorized access.
August 10, 2012 at 7:51 pm |
It’s not hacking in ANY definition of the word. If you have a genuine grievance, stop belittling it by using stupid exaggerations. He clicked a link, probably out of curiosity and it let him in.
August 10, 2012 at 7:55 pm |
TF accessed a private system against the explicit wishes of the owners – I’m curious what word you would use to characterize it if not ‘hacking?’ ‘Cracking’ works just as well, I suppose, but why are we quibbling over definitions? TF accessed a system when he knew he wasn’t welcome to access it.
August 10, 2012 at 7:56 pm |
Haha, so innocent. Just a simple fellow clicking on links that appear in his e-mail, and wouldn’t you know, now he’s accidentally on a listserv. He’s probably so callow and innocent that he doesn’t realize what he’s done, then weeks later, while he’s accidentally reading through these e-mails that he accidentally receives, he stumbles on a sinister plot to cause a well-meaning but very idiotic tweeter to lose his job.
Why, at that point, our hero sure had enough. Who could stand by while such great injustice occurred? No, he would have to make a blog post where he published these e-mails, accidentally, of course. Now, I’m sure it was just coincidence that none of these e-mails actually said anything that wasn’t already posted in public blogs, but…well, he is a dumbass, as we’ve already established, so I guess that part does make sense.
If he did it by accident, he could have informed the webmaster or cancelled his account. He also wouldn’t have tried to get back on after they booted him the second time. My firm’s e-mail tag has explicit instructions about what to do if an email is received by a party that it wasn’t intended. Claiming that he received private correspondence by accident does not justify publishing them.
August 10, 2012 at 8:27 pm
Did I at any point say I thought it was accidental? I’m sure you have a point in there somewhere but it’s so shrouded in shit I never said it’s hard to see.
August 10, 2012 at 8:37 pm
Yeah, I was mocking your stupid whitewashing of TF’s culpability. Sure, just curiosity, that’s all.
I’m not surprised you missed the point. You don’t seem very bright.
August 10, 2012 at 9:27 pm
I could see that, I just don’t care. You might think that your sarcasm and dragged out bullshit was smart, but you didn’t actually address anything I said. But surely what really matters here is who’s the best at mocking.
August 10, 2012 at 9:42 pm
Yeah, you haven’t said anything remotely interesting. All there is to do is mock your silliness. In that respect, yes it does matter, and either I’m better at it or you’re just far more mockable.
August 10, 2012 at 8:07 pm |
I wonder when it will occur to the ringmasters of FreshTurdBanquet that someone may have tipped off TF about their retarded little conspiracy to have him “drummed out”.
August 10, 2012 at 8:10 pm
Are you just speculating or do you have proof that another member of the FTB listserv is forwarding these messages to TF?
August 10, 2012 at 8:18 pm
Perhaps it was when they voted him out then told him they voted him out.
I suppose that’s a conspiracy, in a sense.
August 10, 2012 at 8:32 pm
@stakkalee
Why would he want to see the e-mails?
Begin speculation-
Because someone told him of this (“I want to do whatever it takes to make sure that he (thunderf00t) is essentially drummed out…”) nice little hatchet job they were planning. I am speculating that someone at FilthyTribalBackstabbers thinks this sort of thing is unethical. It is possible that someone there has a conscience.
August 10, 2012 at 8:44 pm
So you’re just speculating; thank you for clearing that up.
August 10, 2012 at 8:09 pm |
I do not think it is so obvious, one way or the other. Say that you are the owner of a club. To enter to the club a member’s name has to be present in a list handled by the doorman. To be included in the list it is necessary to show to the doorman a card personally given by you, the owner.
Say you give me the card. I register with the doorman and for a while I use the club. Then one day you tell me I am not welcome anymore to the club but you do not take back the card and you say nothing to the doorman. You just erase the name from the list.
If I register again with the doorman and I enter, is it trespassing?
May be yes, but it could be argued that you as the owner should know very well the procedure that *you* set up in place and that the fact that you did not take back the card and did not warn the doorman could be considered as you did not really mean to boot me out forever.
And this is only a poorly approximated metaphor. How would a jury decide? I do not know, but while I agree that ethically that was not the right thing to do (to go back), legally I am not so sure.
August 10, 2012 at 8:14 pm |
This is a reasonable position. Ethnically, it’s wrong; TF knew he wasn’t meant to have access to it. Legally, I’m not sure either; he was off the list, and being on the list was the main qualifier for seeing the content of it. He was also asked not to share anything on the list without permission. I’d say it’s too shaky to be criminal.
But it is definitely unethical.
August 10, 2012 at 8:15 pm |
I don’t disagree that this hypothetical club owner didn’t take all the steps necessary to fully ensure you (the hypothetical you) couldn’t regain access to the club. That in no way absolves the hypothetical you of your responsibility to respect the club owner’s wishes.
IOW, I think we agree on the relative ethics of TF’s access to the system, and IANAL so I’m not prepared to make a legal argument about TF’s actions.
August 10, 2012 at 8:24 pm |
The factor in this case that club analogy doesn’t contemplate is that TF actually has those private correspondences and the sensitive information they contain.
It’s more like a situation where someone works for, say, a financial planner. The planner leaves to join another firm. The firm they’re leaving has the right to keep all work-related materials–client lists, software, intellectual property…etc.
What TF did was go back in, however he got there, to a place he shouldn’t be and took information. He still has that information, even if they’ve restricted him from coming back for more.
I do some work on non-competes, and any basic contract TF would have signed in an employment scenario would make everything he’s done very, very illegal. He would be paying out of his ass.
now, this obviously isn’t an employment scenario, so I’m not sure what the laws say. I doubt he has a contract, and if I were counsel for FTB, I’d have them write up some type of agreement that people sign before blogging to make it easier to enforce their rights should something like this happen. OF course, they didn’t anticipate dealing with someone so childish and malicious, but lawyers make money because people like that are all over the place.
August 10, 2012 at 8:39 pm |
Say one of your windows in the place you live has a broken lock. Would I then be justified in breaking into your house/apartment? I wouldn’t suffer any ramifications, right? It’s neither illegal nor unethical, right?
August 10, 2012 at 8:48 pm |
If you have to go for a metaphor, mine is *much* closer to the reality than the one you just proposed.
August 10, 2012 at 9:06 pm |
Except for:
1) It’s illegal to access private e-mail servers without permission. The statute does not indicate HOW access is gained:
http://www.tanoro.com/blog/08102012-thunderf00t-has-turned-hack
Statute near the bottom of the post.
You can be prosecuted for getting into someone’s e-mail without their permission even if you just use the password. The means of access, which is what your analogy deals with, is legally irrelevant.
and,
2) your analogy is completely silent on the fact that TF obtained, without permission, private correspondences containing sensitive information and, in fact, he still has those. The club analogy really doesn’t handle any important points.
August 10, 2012 at 9:20 pm
I do not know. It could be argued that until the owner do not take away the authorization (key, password, whatever) you are still authorized. And if you are authorized and you did not sign any contract, those emails are yours to do what you want. I am not saying you are wrong, just that to me does not look so clear cut. The admins there went beyond incompetence, they really screwed this up.
August 10, 2012 at 9:45 pm
Nope. They removed him. He was aware he was removed, he intentionally tried to get in. From the perspective of the law, all that matters is that his permission was revoked, not how difficult it was for him to get back in.
Those e-mails he obtained after his permission was revoked are not his. As an example, I had a client who was prosecuted for reading e-mails from her ex-husband that her child inadvertently accessed. She did not get into the system, but she did use the contents for which she had no permission.
The admins may have screwed up, but that is meaningless, leaglly.
August 10, 2012 at 10:09 pm
They did not “remove” him. That’s the point. They unsubscribed him, not banned him. These are two *very* different think. It can be argued that this is so obvious that if the admins did not ban him but unsubscribed, they intended to leave him the possibility to resubscribe later.
August 10, 2012 at 10:24 pm
This difference has absolutely no meaning, legally. You can go read the statute I linked. There’s no other way to say this, these hairs you’re trying to split mean nothing.
It was clearly expressed that he was no longer welcome on that listserv. He found a way to sneak back on, and that is illegal. It doesn’t matter if he was banned or removed or booted or kicked or whatever word you want to use. It was clear that he was not meant to see that content anymore.
Read the statute, please, you’re just going round in circles.
August 11, 2012 at 8:33 pm
Spence and Pinecone will eventually read down to here and claim you are libelling TF as we apparently cannot call it illegal until the courts have decided. Opinions are not allowed while there might be some small precedent that casts doubt on the legality 🙂
August 11, 2012 at 10:19 pm
“He found a way to sneak back on, ”
He used the the invite he was given.
“and that is illegal”
Nope. Circumventing existing security is illegal, using a legit code or password issued by an authorized user is not.
” It doesn’t matter if he was banned or removed or booted or kicked or whatever word you want to use. It was clear that he was not meant to see that content anymore.”
So if I email you a pic of myself being sodomized by a nun with a strap-on with the disclaimer DON’T SHOW TO THUNDERFOOT and you forward that to TF a CRIME was committed?
Let’s make it a personal letter, and it says, “do not allow TF to read” is this a legally binding agreement?
“Spence and Pinecone will eventually read down to here and claim you are libelling TF”
Actually I was going to say defamation of character, but libel fits just as well. The big deal is when the admins concede TF used the invite code. Due diligence was not exorcized, as such these assertion are libelous.
There is a good reason news reporters keep on saying alleged all the time. Either way OOloon, you concede that this isn’t “illegal” just shitty, your buddy here can remain delusional if (s)he wishes.
August 11, 2012 at 11:16 pm
Don’t you see it is delusional at this point to say it absolutely is not illegal? I and others have been trying to set out our *opinion* it was an illegal act from all the evidence. You make a bunch of assertions and somehow that magically becomes the truth and I *must* agree with you.
It may turn out you are right and it cannot be classified as illegal – we don’t have all the facts – I personally doubt that as you may have gathered.
Your threats of libel and defamation make it very hard to take you seriously. You appear to be some deranged fanboy desperate to find any justification for his heroes actions and determined to rant about it at length.
August 10, 2012 at 7:37 pm |
Serious question: Did you have a stroke or get hit really hard on the head sometime around April of 2012?
I notice that that was the last post you managed that didn’t include hysterical whining about feminists or Freethought Blogs.
Science and Education? Not as much fun as self-indulgent cross-bearing.
August 10, 2012 at 7:57 pm |
See, now that’s the kind of thing I have a problem with. I made a crack on the Pharyngula site because Nerd of a Redhead was badgering me over and over again with crazed ferocity so I asked him if he had forgotten to take his Ritalin that day. Now if I am an evil abelist, which is what the shrieking hordes called me, then certainly you are too True Colors. That alone would be enough to invalidate anything further you had to say if this was FTB. I am assuming TF won’t banhammer you for your abelist ways.
But don’t you feel ashamed of yourself?
August 10, 2012 at 8:01 pm |
Totally.
Yes, stupid people say stupid things on blog posts. I try to avoid the parts of the internet where humor is shunned. I don’t post on PZ’s site, but I read it.
August 10, 2012 at 8:00 pm |
Thunderf00t, one of the hardest thing a person can do is examine their own thoughts and lines of reasoning to find any flaws – and then remove them, honestly, and possibly with an apology for being wrong. That’s why there are so few skeptics – we hold ourselves to the standard that our worldview should fit reality, a standard that is impossible, but we try anyway.
You are not a skeptic. You won’t examine your own lines of reasoning. It’s sad for me to say this, because I respected you and your videos have been an inspiration to me in the past. But you refuse to examine your lines of reasoning, you refuse to be respectful and you refuse to see other people’s perspectives.
Please, TF, stop doubling down and try to have a real conversation about this. Apologize for being irresponsible and childish through this whole thing, and then, most importantly, find out whether you’re wrong or not. When you find out that you are (spoiler alert: You are. Sorry.), CHANGE. That’s what skepticism requires of you. If you won’t have it, you’re not a skeptic. You have ceased to accept reality as the basis of your worldview. And that’s more sad than anything.
August 10, 2012 at 8:07 pm |
I want to note that everyone has flaws, everyone makes stupid mistakes. We live in a society where admitting that you’re wrong is seen as a bad thing. You’re intelligent enough to know that being wrong is a normal part of being alive. Stop and look at what you’ve done from a perspective that’s not yours. If you can’t, try to have someone else explain it to you. This entire episode is completely forgivable; you took this in a normal, human, direction. It just so happens that this direction was absolutely stupid, bizarre, and totally wrong. I don’t care if they insulted your mother; what matters is what YOU do.
And right now, you’re doing what creationists do every time their worldview comes into question.
August 10, 2012 at 8:58 pm |
+1
August 10, 2012 at 8:12 pm |
Your actions are morally and ethically reprehensible, and the presence of you, and those who still defend you after these revelations, in the atheist community makes me feel physically ill.
You are not a skeptic. You do not have integrity. You do not deserve any type of platform to spread your poisonous opinions and dishonesty. The only silver-lining is that some people are at last seeing you for what you are. I hope the rest are soon to follow.
Your sub-title is Science and Education FTW… you consistently show little appreciation or understanding for either.
August 10, 2012 at 8:37 pm |
I am sincerely sorry to say that I could borrow exactly the same expressions you just used for TF and reapply them verbatim to certain quarters around FTB. My view of all this is that when TF decided to wrestle in the mud with somebody that habitually does that for sport, after a while nobody can tell one from the other.
August 10, 2012 at 9:21 pm |
Please do enlighten me to the exact occasions when members of FTB have violated TF’s privacy and engaged in illegal activity?
Up to this point I was staying out of this drama. While I felt TF was primarily at fault, I also felt the situation was mishandled by FTB. With these revelations, there is no freaking way I can give TF the benefit of the doubt!
August 10, 2012 at 9:35 pm |
I never said they did to TF exactly what he did just now. But *some* of this people have a pattern of behavior very similar to the worst of the bullies. Vicious, unethical and also terribly hypocritical. I formed my opinions over a lot of material that is publicly available. I am sure you know that material as I do. If you choose to have a different opinion than let’ s agree to disagree. I have no interest to convince you otherwise.
I think though we could agree over the fact that TF here behaved in a unethical and *possibly* illegal way.
On the other end I am not without sin therefore I shall not throw the first stone. You can go ahead.
August 10, 2012 at 8:14 pm |
If I read nothing about this whole issue except this port by thunderf00t, I would think t-foot was an untrustworthy ass. Just from his own words here. He admits to gaining access to info he was not authorized to access. That is unethical and probably illegal. I hope FTB pursues legal action.
Also, sometimes people say things in private that they never intend to do. Has FTB tried to get that guy fired? Or did they just muse about it? Until they do seomething, it is just musing. You are trying to convict FTA of thought crime.
T-Foot, I am no FTB minion. Although in the past I found your science videos to be well done, ever since I started reading about your social values, I unsubscribed from your you tube channel.
You’re an ass, a knowledgeable ass, a sometimes smart ass, but an ass none the less.
Good riddance.
August 10, 2012 at 8:24 pm |
Like any skeptical, rational person wanting to know the true, unbiased version of events, without being there first hand, I’ve been reading up on this situation from both sides, hoping to get a well rounded perspective, and you wanna know what I’ve noticed?
When dissenting opinions arise on the other place, their comments are removed and they are asked to leave.
When dissenting opinions arise here, they are argued openly.
Tell me, which better represents free thought? banning and hiding contrary opinions, or openly arguing the merits of each side?
TF is winning this one in my books.
August 10, 2012 at 8:41 pm |
At the moment, no one here is answering any arguments made. Bullies and LightninLew are just spewing shit like a leaking wastewaterpipe, thunderf00t does not answer any criticisms. The rest is criticizing and or bashing TF for behaving like an asshole.
I do not know about any deleted/censored posts on FTB, but the common misconception, that freethought means, that you can just state all the garbage that comes to mind, is still around, I see. Its the “thought” part, that is important as well, not just only “free”.
August 12, 2012 at 11:51 pm |
Here’s an interesting experiment you might want to try.
Pick some relatively recent post on FTB that has a thriving comments section. Try to identify a diametrically opposing viewpoint and present it in a respectful manner as possible. (this has to be a genuinely opposing viewpoint, not just “I think TF is an asshole because of Y” “no, hes really an asshole because of X”).
See what kind of response you get. Bonus points if you post back here with a link.
I’ve tried my upmost hardest to be polite, no use invective or epithets, and to not use any words that might piss people off, and I have received a more hostile response at FTB than any other forum I’ve ever frequented. It is an extremely dismissive atmosphere to anyone who doesn’t largely fall in line.
I believe there to be tremendous confirmation bias, because FTB are so effective at pushing out dissenting voices (and censoring any but the most servile dissenters), that there is a false view of how open the community is since its mainly extremely filtered people talking to other extremely filtered people, then they occasionally dog pile on someone who’s managed, who they can perceive as a troll because everyone else is normally so reasonable (i.e. agrees with me).
August 27, 2012 at 12:57 am |
Well said.
August 11, 2012 at 3:35 am |
Good to know that you’re making your decisions based on the comment sections rather than the facts.
August 11, 2012 at 9:48 am |
False Dichotomy.
August 10, 2012 at 8:24 pm |
Hacking or rather, exploiting a simple and probably well documented vulnerability like this might not have been best idea and Thunderf00t should hang his head in shame for five minutes…
Done? Okay! Well… The trickster god in me simply loves this, and I hope the FtB crowd learns from this and refrains from saying or typing anything they wouldn’t say in front of a camera.
I’m sure they enjoy the thought of how everything they ever said on that list, all the dirty laundry could be leaked by anyone at any time and they have no chance of knowing if someone is forwarding the internal mails to Thunderf00t or someone else right now.
It must’ve been a rude awakening, so… Welcome to the interwebs nubcakes.
August 10, 2012 at 8:29 pm |
Frankly, this is a very amoral postion to take. There are 40 bloggers on the FTB network, and most of them are not party to this feud between TF and PZ. Many members of the listserv have apparently discussed VERY personal things on the listserv; does TF have a right to potentially air all their ‘dirty laundry?’ Even if it’s completely unrelated to anything about TF and his brief FTB career?
August 12, 2012 at 11:54 pm |
Who the fuck discusses VERY personal things with a group of 40 other people? No one in the world can reasonably trust 40 people with very personal stuff. It’s not possible to maintain that many deeply trustful relationships at once. All of which have a copy of what is said that could be shared with anyone.
Not saying that justifies TFs actions, it just seems some people have very odd standards of who and what they trust.
I think its a mistake to think internet anonymity provides you with any meaningful level of secrecy. Any determined enough attacker can find out everything you’ve ever put online relatively easily.
The real defense is to act like the internet is the equivalent of talking in public.
August 10, 2012 at 8:41 pm |
Is *not* a vulnerability. A vulnerability is an unintended behavior of the software that is exploited to make the system to do something which is not supposed to do. Here Mailman did exactly what it was expected. If there is a bug in the system it has to be searched in the area between the chair and the keyboard.
August 10, 2012 at 9:06 pm |
Did you see how Natalie Reed may be affected by this? Her entire life may now be compromised because of what Thunderf00t did. Totally unacceptable.
The information in those emails TF forwarded was far more than “dirty laundry.” Some of it was private information meant to be kept private for very real, very tangible, and very serious reasons.
http://freethoughtblogs.com/nataliereed/2012/08/10/all-in/
August 12, 2012 at 10:51 am |
Natalie was concerned that TF would reveal her real name, which he didn’t. In this blog post stated he wouldn’t be releasing personal details.
August 12, 2012 at 6:16 pm |
Who’s to say that he hasn’t already? Her concern was that since he forwarded e-mails outside of the listserv, her real name may already have been outed to someone. That’s the problem. It’s not what he will do, it’s what he has done.
August 12, 2012 at 11:59 pm |
Everyone on that mailing list has access to her real identity. Shouldn’t she be scared one of them might leak that information as well? Or is everyone on that list besides TF a paragon of integrity?
Members have been pushed off that list in animosity before, any one of them could leak that information out of spite. its extremely unwise to trust in 40 people, many of whom are essentially strangers to keep your secret identity.
The bottom line is we shouldn’t be crucifying TF for what he MIGHT do when there’s no evidence he has done anything, especially when everyone else on that list MIGHT do the very same thing, but hasn’t done anything.
Whats more important is for Natalie Reed to keep her identity better hidden if being outed would be so disastrous for her.
August 10, 2012 at 8:26 pm |
Expose those mothatfuckas Tf!
The masses are with you.
Dont mind the pharyngulist fan-boys, It took them 12 posts on Ftblogs to get them down here in mass, and still they haven’t won the impressions.
Puzy Myers is finally exposed for the Stalinist charlatan that he is.
http://twitpic.com/ahrn0l
August 10, 2012 at 8:36 pm |
Support of the “masses” has traditionally been such a good indicator of rightness and wrongness that I completely understand your enthusiasm.
75% of the Country is Christian, so, GO MASSES!!
August 10, 2012 at 8:48 pm |
I wonder TF, do you feel shame for the people commenting here? If someone with the nick “Reasonist” and the vocabulary of a 12 year old CoD kiddie would agree with me, I would reflect on my position.
August 10, 2012 at 8:28 pm |
Welp, respect for thunderf00t gone.
August 10, 2012 at 8:34 pm |
Well, TF, you should probably read this. You may have dove into waters much deeper than you thought:
http://www.tanoro.com/blog/08102012-thunderf00t-has-turned-hack
Ҥ2701. Unlawful access to stored communications
Offense.—Except as provided in subsection (c) of this section whoever—
intentionally accesses without authorization a facility through which an electronic communication service is provided; or
intentionally exceeds an authorization to access that facility;”
Statute at the link.
August 10, 2012 at 8:48 pm |
TF, there’s no reason to employ deception of any kind against anyone, even if you think they’re doing it too.
If they are, fine — demonstrate by better example, then.
August 10, 2012 at 8:50 pm |
Christ Thunderf00t. You are a fucking child. Huge loss of respect.
August 10, 2012 at 8:55 pm |
Christina Rad’s take on this is golden. Everyone should read her thoughtful entries on this subject; her reasoning on the matter is a blueprint for trying to be as objective as one can be when one knows one can never be completely objective.
August 10, 2012 at 9:04 pm |
She hasn’t addressed this issue.
August 11, 2012 at 1:19 pm |
I meant the whole issue, not the emails. Wasn’t her assessment admirable?
August 11, 2012 at 2:35 pm |
It was, yeah. Her latest video is very funny.
August 10, 2012 at 9:04 pm |
You know, if you want to go the whole “Bradley Manning” route… at least Manning had something to show for his whistle-blowing. TF has…. what… stuff we already knew? Private conversations that amounted to nothing? Threats but no evidence of real action taken, or even planned?
Give me a break, Thunderf00t. Bradley Manning you are not.
August 10, 2012 at 9:08 pm |
Dude, there’s no mention about going after his job in those emails. There’s no anything really, apart from some self-righteous anger and not-intended-for-public-consumption discussion.
You’ve tried to paint FTB as horrible people based on the secret inside knowledge you have though these emails but failed to show evidence to support that claim. If this is the worst you’ve got then they must be pretty decent people overall.
August 10, 2012 at 9:19 pm |
Before, I considered you kind of a jerk but I still liked your videos (before you changed your focus into raging against FTB and feminists, that is). Now? Now I want you drummed out of the community and forever considered a pariah. This is unforgivable behavior and I hope FTB takes legal action against you. You’ve quite literally put people’s lives in danger. You claim that you don’t “doc drop”, but you can’t possibly be trusted.
August 13, 2012 at 12:03 am |
Why do you think TF can’t be trusted, but the same people in the mailing list who have seemingly seriously contemplated getting someone fired for calling their blog network “unreadable”.
I’d be much more concerned about those people having my secret identity than TF, who so far has an immaculate record at not doc dropping.
If anyone is at risk of fucking up peoples lives in an act of petty vengence its FTB, not TF.
August 10, 2012 at 9:23 pm |
Yup, sure looks like Dillahunty is siding with Thunderf00t… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQEKXlSrziM
August 10, 2012 at 9:36 pm |
I’ve watched the video, and I got the complete opposite impression, and I don’t think how you can interpret that as a support of Thunderf00t. Did you perhaps mean the opposite?
August 10, 2012 at 9:57 pm |
Sarcasm tag should not have been needed 🙂
I’ve not really come across Matt Dillahunty before but I must say that was an eye opener. Very reasonable statement from someone who obviously considered himself a friend of TFs. Same sort of expressions from AronRa’s wife about their interactions with TF – they tried to reason with him and failed. What is going on? When your friends abandon you because of your behaviour then that is usually a good sign you should stop and take stock.
August 11, 2012 at 4:07 am |
Ophelia Benson – take note.
August 10, 2012 at 9:59 pm |
I think it was sarcasm. Dillahunty was…unambiguous in his position.
August 10, 2012 at 10:03 pm |
Sorry, I forgot to indicate sarcasm. 🙂
August 10, 2012 at 10:07 pm |
Also, this was actually meant as a response to someone else. So it lost some of its context as sarcasm.
August 10, 2012 at 11:21 pm |
Ah, I see. My apologies.
August 10, 2012 at 9:33 pm |
Well at least we know that PZ and his gang were right. You are a scumbag and you just proved it.
August 10, 2012 at 9:35 pm |
I’ve decided never to read a FtB post ever again, if this is how these people behave — I want nothing to do with them. Keep up the rationale, thunder00t!
August 10, 2012 at 9:40 pm |
Oh, lookie here! An FTBer posting private emails and IP addresses?
http://freethoughtblogs.com/lousycanuck/2012/03/11/the-twenty-comments-in-my-moderation-queue/
August 10, 2012 at 10:03 pm |
Sucks. So if you find this objectionable, what is your positoin on TFs intrusion?
August 10, 2012 at 10:14 pm |
Yes, TFs actions are objectionable, BUT so is the suggestion of going after Payton’s job, maybe not per se, but the feeling was there. Both parties are guilty of wrongdoing/slimy behavior but only one is getting a shitstorm thrown at them.
I just posted that link to show the hypocrisy in attacking TF for things the FTB did themselves. Funny how there’s no outrage among the FTB community when it’s one of their own. Only when it’s someone who disagrees with them.
When Lousycanuck gets this kind of shit thrown at him by the community and/or gets his post taken down or expelled from the network for violating what must be some kind of privacy policy, I will stop calling FTB hypocrites.
August 10, 2012 at 10:20 pm |
So now we’re prosecuting thoughtcrimes? It was talked about, but we can’t say with how much seriousness it was discussed. It could also have been a bad idea that was brought up, then quickly rejected. Of course, we only have TF’s filtered perspective to look through, as he has the email messages and is sharing with the rest of us what he feels like sharing.
There is NO evidence whatsoever that anyone actually acted on that “threat” to jeopardize Payton’s job. It was all talk, and nothing more. If there WAS evidence, TF would have revealed it by now, instead of continuing with this pettiness.
Stop pointing the finger in the other direction to distract us. One wrong does not justify another. If I kick a puppy, does that give you the right to kick one, too? No. In fact, this only makes TF look worse; because there are examples of this thing happening in the past, and TF is doing the same exact thing. It actually seems like actions such as those taken by Lousy Canuck are what inspired Thunderf00t.
All you’re saying is, “Yeah, what he did was wrong, BUT LOOK AT THESE OTHER PEOPLE!” Pathetic.
August 10, 2012 at 10:28 pm
Sorry there was no threat on Paytons job at all in any of the conversations posted by TF. There were some suggestions Payton should be called out and criticised – which happened in public on FtBs, so no news there.
The job thing was only an assertion from TF that ‘messages were received by CFI Canada’ juxtaposed to the FtBs discussion with no evidence FtBs were involved. At all.
August 10, 2012 at 10:15 pm |
Hehe been trawling FtBs looking for ‘evidence’ of similar crimes eh? You have succeeded in getting their ad revenue up but little else.
IP addresses are of little use beyond banning people – unless you are an ISP and can link it to a home address. So not sure what the point is there — oh no my private IP’arts are showing!
Private email…? Where when you sign up to FtBs does it promise not to reveal your email even if you are a nutty MRA troll? They voluntarily signed up and passed their ‘private’ information to FtBs. Not sure what the data protection laws in the US are but I doubt this was infringing without a statement that they will not release the email address you sign up with. The privacy policy says they will never sell your email address not that they will never post it. Maybe it is just me but I signed up with an address that is completely anonymous however I suspect these people did too.
So where is the equivalent crime Quawonk? Even if it was equivalent – how is it at all relevant?
August 10, 2012 at 10:22 pm |
Oh missed his own explanation on that link 🙂
“yes, I published email and IP info. On the right, in the Contact Me form, “I reserve the right to publish any contact, especially if it’s hateful or ridiculous””
So no equivalence… At all.
August 10, 2012 at 10:39 pm |
Oh, lookie here! An FTBer explaining why he posted private emails and IP addresses. Pity you didn’t read to the end of the thread…
http://freethoughtblogs.com/lousycanuck/2012/03/11/the-twenty-comments-in-my-moderation-queue/#comment-54541
August 10, 2012 at 10:42 pm |
meanwhile… Oolon beat me to it 😦
August 10, 2012 at 9:48 pm |
I have no dog in this fight, but I would cheerfully invite the FTB dog in for a bowl of water and some kibble.
Thunderfoot’s dog? I’d call animal control if I saw IT walking in my neighborhood.
August 10, 2012 at 10:22 pm |
You don’t doc drop, you just take private emails and make them public without permission, after rejoning a mailing list that you know the people running it don’t want you to be part of.
That makes you essentially a dishonest person.
So why should I give any credence to what you have to say?
Certainly any friends of yours should be careful what they write to you, in case you have an arguement with them and decide everything and anything you can find to slander them is fair game.
August 10, 2012 at 10:25 pm |
Ah yes, so you’re fighting against hate by saying there’s no need for sexual harrassment policies to be implemented…Don’t see how that works.
But they kept you on, tried to see if you’d go after some theists instead. And when you didn’t do what they brought you on to do, they dropped you. Then, they became justified in even harsher criticism of you by you gaining access to some private emails you weren’t supposed to have and threatening to release them.
I mean, heck, some of those people used to be on your side aside from your issues with common sense policies.
You’ve even got me worried about the fact that I had to put down my email address on here. I know I’m only a nobody (nobodies are the easiest to go after), but now that I’ve dared to speak against you, who knows what horrible fate I might meet due to my criticism of you.
And who knows what might occur to any of your regulars here who disagree with you one day. That’s some open and honest discussion, isn’t it?
August 10, 2012 at 11:15 pm |
@Thunderfoot congratulations for having the guts to expose these fucking despicable shit-roaches for who they really are. Sunlight is the best disinfectant!
August 10, 2012 at 11:20 pm |
The pernicious unintelligent of these people is lovely. I love you too thunderf00t! I’ll find you a place with me. :]
August 11, 2012 at 1:40 pm |
Not only is it not a contradiction in terms, in the military and in security agencies, it’s the norm for “eyes only” communications to be sent to multiple people. There aren’t many lone wolves in bureaucracies. All parties would need “ultra-confidential” security clearance to be included, of course, but that is how it works. So maybe you need some new “books.”
August 10, 2012 at 11:27 pm |
TF, I see that, while you are engaged with this comment thread to a degree, you still remain silent on my questions. I don’t know you, but I suspect you realize by now just how much you’ve stepped in it, and I can understand your reluctance to answer those questions. In fact, I suspect you realize just how damning those answers would be. There’s obviously no reason for you to answer my questions publicly. I hope, for your sake at least, that you’ll take the time to answer those questions for yourself, and perhaps reflect on what they say about you.
I have a rule; well, I have a few rules, but my own Rule Number One is “Know your motives.” What I mean by that is, we all have reasons for the things we do. Lots of reasons, for every action we take. We may be aware of some of those reasons, but other reasons may take some serious introspection to suss out. When was the last time you sat down and thought about your motivations in this feud? And I don’t mean your bullshit “Protecting Mr. Payton” reason, because by now everyone reading this thread knows you accessed the listserv well before the Payton issue ever arose. You obviously feel betrayed by PZ Myers, a person you apparently considered a friend. You feel so betrayed that you’ve engaged in behaviour that may even cross the line from unethical to illegal. Why does this betrayal hurt so much? Ask yourself that. If you don’t answer any of my other questions, at least answer that one. Not out loud, not for public consumption, but for yourself. Trust me, you owe it to yourself to find the answer to that question.
August 11, 2012 at 8:41 pm |
Given TFs modus operandi on replying to comments he picks some people who are not really making any coherent point or asking any questions and then ridicules them for it. So I agree with you he should answer – but I doubt he will come out from under his duvet to tackle those questions.
August 11, 2012 at 12:30 am |
I’m just sick of the entire mess (and I hold TF the least responsible for my sickness). It’s….counterproductive to think that rationalists must hold a unified front.
People need to flatly state their ideas, present them as well as possible, and allow them to stand on their own. The people of FTB just couldn’t seem allow TF to do that–and these revelations about secret political machinations (nearly seizures, it seems) certainly isn’t surprising in view of the ruckus and it’s origins.
Ideas made public are for CONSUMPTION, not censure. It people can gain from them–great. If they find them wrong and worthless–so what? Maybe the reader can be happy to have identified an idea presenter who shouldn’t take much of his time in the future.
The FTB position (and atmosphere, apparently) is stultifying.
August 11, 2012 at 12:31 am |
Thunderfoot,
You need some serious time off – maybe on a beach on a secluded island in the Pacific for the next two months.
You have compounded a problem which you got yourself into to begin with by some quite emotional and irrational actions and quite irrational defenses that are blinding you that you are self-destructing.
I don’t think anyone knows or can say why but the effects we see in your responses and actions are bizarre to those of us who perceived a completely different person before this. Step back, seek help and guidance if necessary, but just stop, chill out, then give yourself a chance to assess the big picture.
August 11, 2012 at 12:46 am |
Just wow
August 11, 2012 at 1:02 am |
Eh, I’ve gotten over Santa and Jaweh. I’ll deal with this, too. And no WAY am I unsubscribing and if you give a shit, neither will you.
From my perspective, this a tragedy happening in slow motion. I understand that those involved and the “fans” of each position are overwhelmed with cognitive input and must, out of necessity, block out the majority so that they can focus on the crisis unfolding before their eyes.
I’m rubbernecking. You people just happen to be atheists like me. That’s why I have a greater interest in the horrible shit that’s happening. I’m concerned but at the same time it’s like cringing through a SAW movie.
I hope I’m not the first to notice that there are two “Rebecca’s” in play now.
The first is notorious for bunches of (primarily) guys going nuts about elevators.
The second is Brooks.
From what I’ve seen just in the last few hours (I ditched cable tv over a decade ago, btw), the overused and broken “-gate” suffix requires something “News of the World”,-ly.
“ThunderBr00ks”?
“‘BeccaF00t”?
Nah. Those will never catch on.
I suppose we’re stuck with “F00tGate”.
Guh.
BTW, respect is earned. That doesn’t make it a given.
August 11, 2012 at 1:11 am |
“…a given”
Should have been, “…perpetual”.
I hate when that happens.
August 11, 2012 at 1:28 am |
[…] times to re-access the private list. And he has already made the content of some of those emails public. (UPDATE: If you want to know exactly what thunderf00t did and how, Jason Thibeault has the […]
August 11, 2012 at 8:57 pm |
Nice post – mostly agree with what is said there. But although I spend a lot of time on here taking the piss out of the anti-FtBs brigade I could not agree that *no* bullying comes from the FtBs side. You might say it is justified but things like giving a section of the opposition a name like the ‘slimepit’ denigrates and dehumanises. It makes it easier to make blanket statements that all of ‘them’ at the ‘slimepit’ are misogynists etc. To me that is one group bullying another and I don’t particularly care who started it or who shouts loudest as that does not make it ok.
Having said that no wrongs on one side justify unethical or shitty behaviour on the other – an eye for an eye will make the whole world blind.
August 11, 2012 at 1:30 am |
Can you and PZ not go and have a beer together and sort this out between yourselves? I mean, you’re supposed to be rationalists, for fucks sake. This kind of infighting and petty name calling makes atheists everywhere look bad. How are people going to be convinced to come out of the atheist ‘closet’ if this is the community they’re coming out to?
Will you not try to see things from your opponents point of view? It’s a rare situation where one person is 100% in the right. In a feud like this, there’s usually blame on both sides. Try to look at this intelligently. All you are doing at the moments is making the rifts worse. It’s sad, because from what I’ve seen, you and PZ used to get on alright. Is there no better way to fix things than this? I can’t believe that, you’re both smart people, but this is no solution. There must be a way to peacefully reconcile your differences. Just think about it, please.
August 11, 2012 at 1:38 am |
I really hoped that would happen some day. It might take decades to even regain frenemy status at this point. Even that is… probably not going to happen.
August 11, 2012 at 1:50 am |
Must be nice living in middle ground fallacy land.
August 11, 2012 at 1:57 am |
Yeah, reality is pretty lopsidedly in favor of PZ, et al. I didn’t like how they treated him initially, but what he’s done is so bad whatever was done to him is less than a statistical margin of error.
August 11, 2012 at 5:24 am |
I understand how you feel. I for one will not be visiting the FloppyTitsBand site and will not post there, it is NOT A SAFE PLACE.
If you disagree with them it appears that they conspire to have you “drummed out of this movement”, and they have been e-mailing peoples bosses to try and get them fired. Now their ‘movement’ has been exposed to be a bowel movement. What TF has done needed to be done, like lancing a boil. Yes it is messy but I think that the end result will be beneficial.
To anyone considering posting over there FFS use a meltmail address.
August 11, 2012 at 1:41 am |
Good grief. FTB should be the pariah. Their behavior is inexcusable, and grows more harmful by the day.
Thunderf00t, it’s a mostly thankless job, but someone has to hold them to account. Thanks for being the one to it, and not just let them censor you out of existence.
August 11, 2012 at 1:52 am |
At the rate their going they will be the pariah without any organized effort being required. First they went after Richard Dawkins for his criticism of elevator-gate, then DJ Grothe from JREF, next TF, and in his post on the 7th Sam Harris refers to PZ as “the shepherd of Internet trolls”. I hear daily from former FTB sycophants (my characterization not theirs) who have had their eyes opened.
August 11, 2012 at 3:01 am |
Eyes opened… because FTB went after well known names? If FTB is full of sycophants, that’s one thing. But it would have no relation to those who “had their eyes opened” when FTB critiqued various ‘leaders’.
August 11, 2012 at 4:02 am |
The ironic thing is that the FfTB crowd have little influence in the wider A/S communities. In fact, they are looked down upon by most. The reaction at TAM2012 told you how the community does not follow the hard line set out by PZ, Watson, Ophelia, etc.
But you are most certainly correct. There is an increasing number of former FTB sycophants who now realise just how abhorrent PZ, Watson, et al are.
In due time, FTB will be consigned to the dustbin of history, and the atheist and skeptic communities will grow ever stronger.
August 11, 2012 at 9:09 pm |
Give us a prediction of when the end times will come guru Tuvok so we can await the ascension to the new atheism with glee.
August 12, 2012 at 12:38 am
Not with a bang but a whimper. – T.S. Eliot (The Hollow Men)
August 11, 2012 at 1:51 am |
To be honest it doesn’t surprise me the childish conniving that FTB does in “secret”. They have desperately tried to establish a litmus test ever someone was had a proposal in an elevator.
Don’t listen to the idiots telling you to put your tail between your legs Thunderf00t. Call the douchbags out for what they are. They show more signs of cultish behavior rather than a diverse rationalist group.
August 11, 2012 at 1:58 am |
Don’t listen to you yes-man followers, Thunder! Look deep inside – are you certain you’re in the right?
August 11, 2012 at 2:02 am |
The church of skeptology further distances itself from the world of individualism and objectivity.
August 11, 2012 at 2:28 am |
Does it matter to anyone else that what Thunderf00t did or is still doing is illegal and generally speaking hacking and bullying of this nature are not looked upon nicely by the legal system?
August 12, 2012 at 11:55 am |
It’s not illegal. They essentially told their backend system that he unsubscribed from their email list, so he just resubscribed.
August 11, 2012 at 2:30 am |
Drama.
August 11, 2012 at 2:31 am |
What I find most unnerving is the hyperbolic binary thinking that goes on at FTB on certain issues, like feminism. “If you’re not in exact 100% lock step with us, you’re a misogynist!” But also in this matter with Thunderf00t. Ashley Miller’s comment in particular cranked the hyperbole up to 11, very disturbing, reminds me of Republican war rhetoric.
August 11, 2012 at 2:43 am |
Thunderf00t, you are slowly but surely ruining any decent reputation you had. You seem to enjoy starting wars and then blaming ‘the other side’.
You lost my respect when you lied and re-edited Dawahfilms to make it look like he threatened you and worse.
Stop now before your ego grows too big for the internet.
August 11, 2012 at 10:40 am |
Exacrly where did thunderf00t lie about kevin?
You imply that TF changed the message of Dawahfilms by editing his video. He didn’t. Whether dawah threatened Tf in response to a ‘perceived’ threat from Tf or not, (Tf made no such threat) Dawah still claimed his holy nonesense gave him a mandate to kill, and that he spoke for most muslims. Tf called him out and since kevin has only further demonstrated what a pathetic, jihadist, troll, islamic barbarity excusing scumbag he is.
August 11, 2012 at 10:44 am |
edit:
”jihadist-wannabe’
August 11, 2012 at 4:03 am |
It seems that some people don’t understand whole Natalie Reed identity issue.
“Natalie Reed” is a pseudonym (which I assume most know). However, Natalie Reed has another name, a name she uses in real life; for the purpose of this post, her name will be “X.” Now, let’s say that on this list-serve, Natalie’s email is X@gmail.com, or that she signs her emails as X. If ANY email that she was included (not that she wrote, an email that she received through the list serve; I have personally experienced this before because occasionally someone on my university email will reply to the list serve, sending off the email to everyone on the list serve and revealing everyone’s email address) in OR any email that she sent was forwarded without editing her name out, her identity has been exposed. Even if Thundrf00t doesn’t post her name on this website, if he forwards in the manner i just mentioned, he has revealed her identity to third parties, any of whom can pass the information on by word of mouth, email, public posting, and more.
This shit is serious. Trans people can be fired for being trans, be denied housing for being trans, be denied employment for being trans, and much more. Hell, trans people are uniquely in danger of being beaten or murdered simply for existing, and when they are, they are often held accountable for their own murder/beating to some degree on the basis of being trans.
I sincerely hope that Thunderf00t did not reveal Natalie’s real name by sending off emails to third parties that included her name, because doing so is a real risk to Natalie’s safety and well being. To think that anyone might respond to an internet spat by putting someone in danger is nauseating. There is NOTHING that Natalie did that would warrant this kind of response. If Thunderf00t did this, I don’t know how it could be forgiven.
August 11, 2012 at 5:47 am |
I wonder how many people are on this little back passage e-mail list (I am guessing 50 or so) at FlagellateTheirBalls. Anyone who has willingly participated in this little cabal of conspirators is in some regard ‘fair game’.
Anyway if you had actually read what TF wrote you would see that he said the headers were removed (a cutesy they did not deserve).
August 13, 2012 at 12:28 am |
“Trans people can be fired for being trans, be denied housing for being trans, be denied employment for being trans”
So its bad to do stuff online that might cost people their jobs? So where is Natalie Reeds posts about FTB/SkepChicks long history of trying to ostracize and financially destroy their enemies?
I guess if you lose your job and get completely ostracized for being trans thats terrible, but if that happens because you disagree with FTB/SkepChick then its peachy?
Okay so they haven’t been too successful with that (with the exception of DJ Groethe, who got the boot for daring to suggest that its possible the vastly disproportionate focus on sexual harrassment in the skeptic movement might have been responsible for the massive drop in female attendees at last TAM, and attempting to collect data on that issue).
How is trying and failing to fuck up peoples lives by ostracizing them and costing them their jobs, somehow less bad than someone not trying to fuck up someones life and ostracize them from their community?
Where the hell is the outrage about this?
If someone found an email exchange that had TF saying he wanted to expose Natalie Reed as trans and have her fired and ostracized from her community people would be flipping their shit.
Anyone who’s wailing on TF now (who did a stupid and unethical thing), who hasn’t spoke up about the past instances of harassment instigated by members of FTB/Skepchick is a hypocrite of the highest order.
Why don’t we focus on the groups with huge influence who have repeatedly tried to crush people for disagreements, instead of the guy who violated the privacy of an email group and might out someone as trans (even though he hasn’t and has given no indication that he would).
While you’re wondering how to forgive TF for something he hasn’t done, maybe you should think about how to start challenging the out of control groupthink at FTB/Skepchick.
August 11, 2012 at 4:34 am |
Compared to those ftb people, you’re not vile, and Sam Harris was right about PZ Myers.
August 11, 2012 at 4:39 am |
Also, I’d like to clarify something, as it seems to be a common misunderstanding:
Nowhere in this post does Thunderf00t present any evidence to suggest that anyone from FTB made the call, and in fact he doesn’t claim it was FTB; however, the information was presented in a way that people seem to be assuming FTB made the call.
August 11, 2012 at 6:13 am |
Oh, Thunderfoot – where did it all go so horribly wrong? At one point, your “Why People Laugh At Creationists” videos were the last word in debunking feckless cretins… Those days seem little more than a distant memory now.
Your ill advised foray into criticism of Islam and the inevitably interwebs dramaz prompted such a slew of eye rolling even by some of your fanboys you had to promise to do science videos (though, not without e-begging a bit)….
Honestly, this is starting to feel like watching someone decline into mental infirmity. There have been so many wrong steps along this road, it doesn’t feel as if we can say “Oh, well – he made a mistake!” any more. It’s not just a single incident. It’s a pattern of behaviour.
And it’s sad but as soon as this whole Free Thought thing started I’m pretty sure I thought “Better get my popcorn!” because there was no way that anything as reasonable as an apology would happen.
This whole thing has been a slow motion train wreck and the fact that Free Thought Blogs are now being portrayed as some sinister Machiavellian organisation conspiring to destroy you for no other purpose than… uh, evil… is ridiculous.
For someone who seems to be unable to go a Magic Sandwich Show without talking about the utility of predictive models a dozen times or more, you seem hugely unaware of the fact that regardless of the legality of your actions as regards accessing a private mailing list and regardless of whether you consider yourself some whistle blowing martyr that your behaviour was unethical, immoral and quite frankly – unjustifiable, regardless of the words your sycophantic fanboys drip into your ears.
And even if that WASN’T a consideration – which is absolutely has to be – what was your reaction to PZ not liking your first ill advised foray into talking about sexism? Running to your fanboys and blubbing about how mean ol’ PZ hurt your precious little feelings.
Hell, most forums I know would ban you for that kind of inter-site drama nonsense straight off the bat. Why? Because it’s infantile. Sure, PZ wasn’t diplomatic but you’re pretending as if you are – as your detractors have oft called you – THUNDERCHRIST.
You’ve lost all perspective, it seems and become entirely too enamoured with the legions of unthinking, supine yes men who think you can do no wrong… if you’d had any sense, you’d have listened to the people years ago now that told you to stick to science videos.
Once upon a time you made a whole video about another youtube video maker, calling him a drama queen and suggesting he had a personality disorder. The irony being, he was very self-aware of his situation… you currently seem utterly oblivious to the gigantic drama maelstrom you have become and how divisive you are, despite all the “a house divided” talk.
You’ve become everything you once hated, Thunderfoot… Quit while you’re behind.
August 11, 2012 at 7:26 am |
While i agree Tfs gone astray since FTB.
I wouldn’t critisize him over the ilam thing.
He was spot on and called it like it was, and despite what certain appeasers tried to claim, he wasn’t racist or stereotypical. If you look at what he actually said. That was part of what made him great.
Just look at the results of draw mohammed day, for example, see how the cries of blasphamy have all but died outside of islamic theorocaies, hell even pakistan gave up trying to block it.
Get back to that kind of stuff Thunderf00t, real issues of real importance.
August 11, 2012 at 6:17 am |
Found elsewhere..
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/07/26/wikileaks-does-humanity-a-serv/
PeeZus says:
August 11, 2012 at 10:14 am |
Yeah I think you’ll find the whole whistle blowing thing is a bit of a dead end — how did TF manage to know that FtBs would try to drum someone out of their job when he accessed the email a good month before the event?
August 11, 2012 at 6:21 am |
May I suggest for a different voice on this whole Ftb thing, one have a look at John Loftus’s blog, and search for articles with the “Why I left Ftb” search terms.
There is some interesting reads there.
http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2012/08/there-is-war-going-on-at-freethought.html#uds-search-results
August 11, 2012 at 7:06 am |
Thunderf00t, Thundef00t.
Please stop!
Agreed, PZ broke his promise to you.
Agreed, a lot of bullying goes on at FTB.
Agreed, The skepchiks turn out a fair amount of nonsense.
Agreed, not all at FTB are of the highest quality.
But it seems your blowing this all out of proportion, you seem to be wording things so that they are missconstrued at the detriment of FTB, made to seem sinister, i don’t believe they are.
Zinnia asked if there was any problem with ripping into payton before doing so. Whats wrong with that? Zinnia disagreed with something said/tweeted and wanted to address it. Seriously what’s wrong with that. Was it FTB that contacted Paytons employer? I’ve not seen any evidence they did. But i’m getting the impression that, allthough you don’t say they did, you want people to think they did.
You’ve done yourself no favours here.
Please draw a line, get back to what made you great!
August 11, 2012 at 7:57 am |
just one more thing.
“a knife job” !!! WTF!
Really it say’s something when you resort to unwarrented emotive language like that.
August 11, 2012 at 7:15 am |
Get the fuck over it and stop acting like a baby, everyone hates you now
August 11, 2012 at 7:16 am |
Thank you Thunderf00t, for standing up to the bullshit. You’re not the only one which FfTB bloggers have done things to in the past.
They have made attempts to ruin other atheists, and used their fans as a means to attack them. There is a documented history of FfTB and their dogmatic attacks on others. Matt Dillahunty’s latest video shows that he is either unaware of what has transpired, or he is biased towards his co-bloggers, to where he takes their word for things, without digging into the details.
Don’t let others who only want to see science videos discourage you from attacking this dogma. You can still do both. The battle against FfTB is a never ending one, which has been happening continuously for the last year.
August 11, 2012 at 10:18 am |
If by attempts to ruin other atheists you mean criticised them in public… Well duh. You may have a point if there were a trail of broken atheists and lost jobs following in FtBs wake. But there are none.
No jobs lost
No one silenced
No one broken
A few people criticised, yup. You may disagree with the criticism but stretching that to attack is ridiculous.
August 11, 2012 at 10:53 am |
“No one silenced”
I can personally vouch for this being bullshit. Good critical thinking there asshat.
The problem is that once you have been bullied into silence there is only silence from the victim. You don’t get blogs and youtube videos from the silenced people.
You feel threatened, you feel that if you express your opinion then some uppity bully will e-mail your boss, have their minions spam your youtube channel or facebook with their hate. F*ck the FitThrowingBullies F*ck them with a porcupine.
It is only recently that I have begun to realise that I am not the only one. People are standing up to the bullies and trolls and they don’t like it.
August 11, 2012 at 9:12 pm |
Its a miracle! The Namefagged one was mute and now he can speak!
August 12, 2012 at 2:53 am
Not hearing from silenced people is evidence they don’t exist- FlowingTearsBabys logic.
August 12, 2012 at 7:56 am |
“I have every right to be there. I have been to every tam since tam 5. I have been a contributor to SWIFT. I’m a member of the JREF and numerous other skeptic organizations (CSI, Skeptic) etc. I’ve volunteered at events. At almost every TAM I have spent time putting things together and helping out. I’ve made my best friends through skepticism. I spend my time doing things like writing letters to newspapers, blogging and other activities to advance the cause of scientific skepticism.”
“I’m now not sure what to do here. TAM is the highlight of my year and I already have dropped more than a grand on hotel rooms, flights and so on, because until yesterday I wasn’t even aware this was an issue.
I’m downright scared that going is somehow going to ruin my reputation or something.
You’re starting to make me feel very unsafe at TAM. I have a good time there and most people are happy to see me. It’s a great place to network with other skeptics and advance the cause.”
Not seen at TAM2012.
Jesus Fucking Christ you FuckingTrollBasterd sacks of movement there is your example.
Your sack of movement lied about, doxed, and hate mailed this innocent man.
August 14, 2012 at 11:41 am |
Just in case any one is wondering this is the man that Namefag is so protective of -.
“anyone can google Mr. X and learn about the up-skirting, I think it is important to stand with him until and unless he is proven guilty–not of having a camera on a stick–but actually up-skirting. Greta didn’t just imply he did that–she actually stated he did that as if it were a fact. That’s wrong. I still stand with Mr. X on Greta’s post. On all the other boorish behavior, well Mr. X is well known for that kind of thing. I have warned women about him on numerous occasions and I do what I can to avoid him at TAM (not that he has actually done anything I would call “harassment” in my presence, he is just, in my opinion, really creepy)”
And there is a ‘real’ person there explaining exactly how they were harassed by Mr X. So yeah not only does harassment at conferences not exist but poor non-existent harassers are harassed into not attending now by the treat of dealing with that non-existent harassment!
It must be hard being Namefag and actually having the gall to call yourself a sceptic – feel sorry for it, not angry.
August 11, 2012 at 7:34 am |
[…] thing that occurred to me as I was reading about the squabbles between atheists and among Christians is that people are the same everywhere. If they can make a […]
August 11, 2012 at 7:39 am |
FreeThoughtBlogs will be long forgotten and Thunderf00t will still be going strong. Expose the hypocrisy through any and all means necessary. I cannot tell you how many times I have seen PZ repost emails for the purpose of mockery. Where was the outrage in those instances? The whole Girlyban charade is falling apart faster than Surly Amy’s cheap trinkets. Enjoy.
August 11, 2012 at 8:00 am |
Sam Harris wrote some interesting things on his blog in relation to PZ Meyers http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/wrestling-the-troll
August 12, 2012 at 5:52 am |
If by “interesting” you mean, “stupid and defensive,” then I agree.
August 11, 2012 at 9:11 am |
I don’t think that leaking these emails is illegal; basically, they screwed up removing you from the email list (if I understand the software in question, they unsubscribed your rather than banning you). I’m not a lawyer though, so you might get into trouble for this.
I think now is the time for you to move on and get back to your youtube work Thunderf00t. You’ve shown PZ Myers for what he is, and shamed FTB with this despicable email plotting. Have faith (lol atheist) that other people will not let FTB forget about this or forgive them if you now move on. Let the rest of the community handle this now, and do your own thing again.
August 11, 2012 at 10:29 am |
How do so many people manage to read TFs post and see ’email plotting’… They discussed a post criticising Payton before it was publicly posted – WTF is wrong with that?
Admittedly TF put that bit right next to the bit talking about ‘messages’ sent to CFI Canada calling for Paytons dismissal. But surely TFs fans are not so stupid that they cannot see there is absolutely no evidence that FtBs had anything to do with it? If he had evidence he would have posted it!
August 11, 2012 at 11:23 am |
Because people actually read the entire thing and see this “I want to do whatever it takes to make sure that he (thunderf00t) is essentially drummed out of this movement, never invited to speak anywhere again and is forever a pariah.” The FullofThemselfBlowhards went after him and he is striking back. Good on him. That is how you deal with bullies.
Look at all of the bleating from them sending their dumb f*ck trolls here. Piss off you mindless sacks of movement.
August 11, 2012 at 9:14 pm |
Reading comprehension is not your strong point – that was a quote from Ed Brayton who said on his own blog he is surprised TF chose such a tame email. He apparently said a *lot* worse when he found out the private email channel had been accessed by TF after he was kicked off…. So not exactly a conspiracy eh?
August 12, 2012 at 3:14 am
Have the FornicationThoughtBobbies cabal denied that anyone in their group called CFI? It would be easy to do if that was true. If they have not it may be because they suspect or know that one of their troll minions did make the call.
So your argument that there is no ‘email plotting’ in some silly little conspiracy against TF is that there are worse e-mails.
August 12, 2012 at 5:52 am
How would you propose they show that they didn’t call someone? The notion is just idiotic, like most of the nonsense you vomit up.
There is no evidence anyone from FTB went after Payton’s job. TF stole all the e-mails, he didn’t provide a single bit of evidence, nor did he produce anything that wasn’t publicly blogged.
You’re a fucking moron.
August 11, 2012 at 11:31 am |
Its a secret conversation, discussing what unpleasant outcomes the group wants to inflict on their enemies, and the underhanded tactics they want to use to achieve it. Its plotting.
I cannot understand how anybody can look at the contents of these emails and not see FTB for what they are.
August 11, 2012 at 9:18 pm |
Please explain why Zinnia discussing a post that she subsequently posted publicly is plotting? There was no discussion in the emails TF posted of anything that was not played out in public.
By all means believe all 39 bloggers on FtBs are part of some Bilderburg conspiracy. But don’t pretend this is evidence of it – I’m amazed TF didn’t find anything better than this from a private back channel.
August 12, 2012 at 5:58 am |
This is just paranoid conspiracy nonsense. Every organization everywhere that’s ever involved in making public statements of any kind discuss those statements before hand. My guess is that a lot of blog posts on FTB go up without prior discussion, but when it’s a criticism of a semi-notable figure in the “community,” it’s perfectly reasonable to ask other members of the community, “hey, does my argument make sense?”
That’s all that happened. TF and his Truther acolytes trying to turn this into some evil plot is just hilarious. Granted, TF just shits out blog posts in a stream-of-consciousness seizure of discursive rambling, so the notion of considering an issue before hitting “submit” may seem bizarre and alien to he and his army of knuckle-draggers, but in the rest of the world it’s a very common process.
August 11, 2012 at 10:08 am |
Religious fundamentalists would be quite proud of the attitudes of people in the Sceptic Community today. The way people like PZ Myers are holding to his views is very comparable to how the religious hold to their faith. No evidence required, just 100% committment to what he believes to be true.
August 11, 2012 at 10:35 am |
As someone with a more than decent knowledge of linux security, I can attest to the absolute ease of forging logs to make them say whatever you want. Thunderf00t may have illicitly accessed the listserv. IMHO that is unethical at best, if true. That being said, the people at FreeThoughtBlogs have a long track record of lying and other sleazy behavior. So I wouldn’t be surprised, at all, if they changed the logs.
August 11, 2012 at 11:37 am |
“As someone with a more than decent knowledge of linux security, I can attest to the absolute ease of forging logs to make them say whatever you want.”
– You don´t need a “decent knowledge of linux security” to know that you could just edit a textfile.
“Thunderf00t may have illicitly accessed the listserv.”
– “may” ?? Are you serious ? thunderf00t admits that in the OP!
August 11, 2012 at 10:59 am |
A little hint to those FTB members/apologists here. If you talk shit about someone behind their back it’s a good chance that they will find out. How “private” you even think that conversation is. If you can’t stand for it in public in his/her face maybe you shouldn’t say it in the first place. There is no such as “private information” on a mailing list. Anyone on that list may tell the person you back stab. You thought you had a little secret gossip-chamber and someone listened through the door you didn’t fully closed. Poor you. If you talk shit, that’s what you get.
If someone thinks your blog post are not worth reading, just let it go. So not everybody agree or love you? That’s life. People who seeks agreement from everybody and get angry when they don’t get it, are to pitty. You’re just sad. A better way to adress this would be: “We think Paytons statement are too broad and unspecified. But that’s ok not agreeing. We strongly condemn those who, on our behalf, contact his employer to get him fired.”
Instead you yell: “Buhu someone outed our shit talk about a person, now let’s work hard to get this snitch expelled from the whole movement and make him persona non grata.”
Again, if you can’t tell it in public, you probably shouldn’t say it at all. Take a leap out of the old school yard. You are grown ups now.
August 11, 2012 at 11:32 am |
“A little hint to those FTB members/apologists here. If you talk shit about someone behind their back it’s a good chance that they will find out. How “private” you even think that conversation is. If you can’t stand for it in public in his/her face maybe you shouldn’t say it in the first place.”
– So, you have *never* said *anything* in a private conversation that you would not also said in public ? Kind of makes the whole concept of “privacy” superfluous doesn´t it ?
Imagine a group of co-workers being in a bar, talking shit about one of their colleagues. What thunderf00t did is the equivalent of recording such a conversation with a mic that he´d snuck in the bar and disclosing the recordings to others.
Your solution would be to just never assume that you are actually having a private conversation – do you live by that ? Would you be fine with someone installing hidden mics in your home because you never say anything that you wouldn´t say in public anyway ? If not, you are a hypocrite.
August 11, 2012 at 1:12 pm |
Yes, I am very carefull what I say about others when they aren’t there. If you can’t tell it to the person itself you shouldn’t say it at all. If a group of co-workers sit in a bar talking shit about a colleage, they are douchbags and should be called on it. If you speak “private” in a public place, and a mailinglist is close to speakers corner, someone will hear you. Even if you talk among “friends” in your home someone can think you crossed a line and spread your words. So don’t ever talk shit! Easy as that.
TF didn’t breake into something or installed hidden mics. He returned into a gossip-chamber though he was told to leave, and the system let him in. He overheard a conversation about a person, and tells him. Unethical? Maybe, but not as the shit they talk about others. Calling people names like “rape culture apologist” and “misogynist” for not agreeing is rather immature.
If someone try to get my opponent fired, on my behalf, I’ll get furious. On that person doing things in my name. If someone tells a person I’ve talked about, I’ll stand by my words. Maybe a little angry on the one who outed me, but not near the anger on those who calls someones empoyer in my name. The reaction from the douches at FTB is quite clear. They are more concerned about their shit talk than someone (or som of them) trying to get a person fired for a tweet.
August 11, 2012 at 2:12 pm |
“TF didn’t breake into something or installed hidden mics. ”
– And a burglar who enters your home through a window that you left open by accident did not “really” break into your house ?
“Unethical? Maybe, but not as the shit they talk about others. Calling people names like “rape culture apologist” and “misogynist” for not agreeing is rather immature.”
– Acting in an “unethical” manner is ok because “the others” are even worse ?
“If someone try to get my opponent fired, on my behalf, I’ll get furious. ”
– They didn´t. The one who was “leaning towards publicly making a minor deal of this” was Zinnia Jones. And she already *did* make a “minor deal out of it” publicly eight days before thunderf00t wrote this post:
http://freethoughtblogs.com/zinniajones/2012/08/the-day-my-entire-body-of-work-became-unreadable-a-freethought-blogs-story/
And that´s all they did – no FTBlogger wrote to CFI Canada, some assholes who didn´t like Payton´s tweet did.
“They are more concerned about their shit talk than someone (or som of them) trying to get a person fired for a tweet.”
– Again, they *never did that*. thunderf00t disclosed nothing in this post that was not already in the public anyway. It was never a secret that there is a FTB backchannel (Loftus already talked about this many months ago after he left FTB) and Zinnia Jones already did make a “minor deal out of the issue” publicly over a week before thunderf00t wrote this.
What they are concerned about, is the danger of thunderf00t disclosing the real names and thus endangering the safety of FTBloggers who rely on their anonymity like Natalie Reed.
August 11, 2012 at 3:20 pm
So we have a small clique of well seasoned ANONYMOUS ftb bloggers/trolls hurling emotional irrational abuse at Thunderf00t, Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins and the many other sincere contributors to rational thought who happen to disagree with them, and all the while cowering behind the veil of anonymity. You FTB people are absolute cowards!
Let’s see you put your real names behind your FTB opinions. It’s time you were outed and your hypocricy exposed. I look forward to the day all your real names are published.
August 11, 2012 at 3:29 pm
“So we have a small clique of well seasoned ANONYMOUS ftb bloggers/trolls hurling emotional irrational abuse at Thunderf00t, Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins”
– No, we don´t. Because Natalie Reed (who is most threatened by loosing her anonymity) was not involved in any way in discussion with or about Harris / Dawkins and stayed almost completely out of the recent discussions over harassment policies,
“Let’s see you put your real names behind your FTB opinions. It’s time you were outed and your hypocricy exposed. I look forward to the day all your real names are published.”
– Have you ever actually visited the FTB site ?? The majority of FTBloggers, and *all* of those that are the target of thunderf00t´s current Vendetta, *do* use their real names. Those who stay anonymous have very good reasons to do so.
August 11, 2012 at 4:33 pm
Sometimes you have to bend social rules to expose worse foul play.
As I said, some idiots made those contacts on behalf of FTB. Some of themself (you don’t know it’s not) or someone who support them. That should be a big concern for them, but no.
As for the blog post. Yes, she is whining about some known atheist dissmiss her, poor drama queen. Even if they didn’t in group planned to contact his employer they do have a lot of shitty talks about him, TF and others they don’t like. OK, for you?
If Reed needs her anonymity on the internet, she shouldn’t share personal data on a mailing list. Internal or not. TF didn’t drop her data. Why should he be a higher threat to her, than her now buddies on the list? Some of them could back stab her just as much in the future. They are obviously good at it there.
August 11, 2012 at 4:56 pm
“Sometimes you have to bend social rules to expose worse foul play.”
– And what foul play was there to be exposed ?
“As I said, some idiots made those contacts on behalf of FTB.”
– And how is FTB to blame for that ? They never supported this and don´t do so now (see below)
“Some of themself (you don’t know it’s not)”
– But Payton would know and thunderf00t likely as well if this would be the case.
“That should be a big concern for them, but no.”
– Wrong. It *is* a concern for them, see for example: http://freethoughtblogs.com/dispatches/2012/08/10/thunderfoots-unethical-obsession/#comment-136801
“As for the blog post. Yes, she is whining about some known atheist dissmiss her, poor drama queen. Even if they didn’t in group planned to contact his employer they do have a lot of shitty talks about him,”
– No. He criticized them and they criticized him – that´s *literally* everything the FTBloggers and Payton did. We don´t know who contacted CFI Canada, but it was neither an FTBlogger, nor someone speaking for FTB, and the FTB community does *not want* to get him fired! The way I understand Brayton – he would support Payton if his employer would seriously consider to fire him over this matter!
“If Reed needs her anonymity on the internet, she shouldn’t share personal data on a mailing list. Internal or not.”
– The “personal data” was her name. And she relied on the fact that a private mailing list is indeed private.
“TF didn’t drop her data. Why should he be a higher threat to her, than her now buddies on the list?”
– Because he used unethical means to regain access to the mailing list in the first place. All they do have is his word that he is not going to disclose personal information – and his word isn´t worth a lot after pulling a stunt like this one.
August 11, 2012 at 11:18 am |
Now here’s some drama I can get into. After reading this, and then the articles on Free Thought Blogs about the incident, it seems pretty clear that they just don’t want everyone to see all of the shit they’ve been talking, for lack of a less crude phrasing.
Shared 🙂
August 11, 2012 at 11:29 am |
The sheer absurdity of the freefromthought Borg collective complaining about “ethics”. Amoral sociopaths – no empathy, no conscience. Whining about “ethics”. Far too rich for my stomach.
August 11, 2012 at 11:34 am |
“Amoral sociopaths”
I take objection to that categorisation!
They are quite clearly “Amoral psychopaths.”
Wash your mouth out with soap.
August 11, 2012 at 12:28 pm |
I am very disappointed about your actions Phil Mason.
You have been a source of great inspiration about reason, science and secularism to many people I know and your videos are very well known on internet.
And now – you are throwing everything good you have made away because of some personal vendetta because someone from your on community has criticized openly your opinions about feminism and code of conduct inside atheist meetings.
Dude, don’t do this, this is not the way you and we as a community should take – your are better that this.
I suggest you use your best weapons you have always used – your mind and resolve this by:
1. Acknowledge you might be wrong
2. Think if your way is best for you, atheists in general and public image about this movement
3. Contact the persons you disagree with
4. Apologize your behavior – yeah really
5. Suggest an open civilized debate about these issues – perhaps filmed
This is what atheist community has always been good at – debates and discussion about the differences we have.
What do you have to lose? Nothing – either you win the debate or you learn something new. This is a win-win situation.
Your current actions is lose-lose -situation to all of us.
August 11, 2012 at 12:44 pm |
Reasonable suggestions, but it is far, far, far too late for this to be resolved in a debate. thunderf00t and the FTB community are not going to bury the hatchet anytime soon. There will be no apologies and no compromises.
By now, everyone who had a dog in this fight has made his / her opinions more than clear, and the only things left to do is to agree to disagree.
thunderf00t, PLEASE – LET. IT. GO.
August 11, 2012 at 12:58 pm |
How about you take it up with PZ Myers Kesara?-
It is reassuring to realize that the majority have had a gut-full of the wholesale slander and vilification of our community. Self-serving maniacs – they don’t care if the destroy everything pursuing their nonsense. Who needs christians to ruin secularism when you have freefromthoughtblogs? “Reasonable” is not a word you can ever use in the same breath with them.
August 11, 2012 at 2:00 pm |
“How about you take it up with PZ Myers Kesara?”
– I would very much welcome it if PZ would stfu. However, the one who can´t give this issue a rest is thunderf00t.
August 11, 2012 at 1:28 pm |
Why don’t the FatuousThugBrowbeaters apologise to TF for trying to “drumm him out…”? For that matter why don’t they apologise to the many other people that they have attacked (Hitch, Dawkins, Harris, JREF, Smith…)?
It is abundantly clear they are not primarily interested in scepticism/atheism but more concerned with their other bullshit political agendas. If you don’t happen to agree with their myopic political views they lash out. They are not going to stop with their petty vile attacks unless people speak out against it.
They conspired to destroy TF, and you think he should give them an apology (facepalm)!
August 11, 2012 at 1:57 pm |
“Why don’t the FatuousThugBrowbeaters apologise to TF for trying to “drumm him out…”?”
– Irrelevant. They will not apologize for anything and thunderf00t will not apologize for anything.
“It is abundantly clear they are not primarily interested in scepticism/atheism but more concerned with their other bullshit political agendas.”
– And everyone who thinks that made it abundantly clear *that* he / she thinks that. Just like the FTB community and their supporters made their points abundantly clear.
“They conspired to destroy TF, and you think he should give them an apology (facepalm)!”
– No, I think he should *finally* let it go instead of continuing to fight over scorched earth.
August 11, 2012 at 2:11 pm |
Uh, what? Is it that you think apologies are in order for being critical of someone?
Or do you think there’s more going on that just voicing criticism? If so… from whom?
Bear in mind: The note about “drumming out Thunderfoot” was AFTER it was discovered he was deliberating trying to get into the mail list. On that paticular matter, there’s no equivalence; Thunderfoot is unabiguously in the wrong. The “drumming out” comment was not prompted by disagreements on any particular issue; but by actions which bloody well ought to make Thunderfoot a pariah.
Calling that a “conspiracy to destroy” is just silly.
Actually, I don’t think anything particularly needs to be done to drum him out of anything; my guess is that his own actions have already done much more damage to his standing than anything anyone else could do to him/
I don’t think anyone needs to apologize for expressing strong criticisms. I do think Thunderfoot damn well needs to apologise for his behaviour over the mail list; but that he won’t.
August 11, 2012 at 3:05 pm |
Some confusion here.
I was responding to Tomppa who wrote “4. Apologize your behavior – yeah really”.
I was trying to say that TF should not be apologising.
+
Maybe I am mistaken but I thought that the tweet conspiracy was being cooked up while TF was blogging for them. The “drumming out Thunderfoot” was in the e-mails he received after he was re-admitted to the mailing list because of incompetence by FoamingTrashBleaters admin (maybe both conspiracys were discovered once he was re-admitted) .
To be honest I don’t care how he obtained the e-mails, I am more interested in the outing of their silly little conspiracy. As far as I am aware Myers confessed that the plan was real in a blog (but I am not going to confirm this by giving their site traffic) after it was outed.
+
If a group of people make a ‘secret’ plan to have a person “…drummed out of this movement…” that is a conspiracy.
I would say use a dictionary but it is easier to put into google – Define:conspiracy
August 11, 2012 at 3:21 pm
“Maybe I am mistaken but I thought that the tweet conspiracy was being cooked up while TF was blogging for them.”
– Nope. Payton tweeted his message on the 15th of July and Zinnia Jones *publicly* responded to it on the 2nd of August (8 days before thunderf00t wrote this post – she is the author of the “publicly making a minor deal out of this issue” mail that thunderf00t referred to).
So, the emails that thunderf00t refers to must have been written between those dates (and thunderf00t was already gone from FTB for more than 2 weeks by that time).
Also, there was no conspiracy and nothing to reveal – all the information that thunderf00t “disclosed” in this post was already *public* a long time ago.
“To be honest I don’t care how he obtained the e-mails, I am more interested in the outing of their silly little conspiracy. As far as I am aware Myers confessed that the plan was real in a blog (but I am not going to confirm this by giving their site traffic) after it was outed.
+
If a group of people make a ‘secret’ plan to have a person “…drummed out of this movement…” that is a conspiracy.”
– Ed Brayton was the one who wrote that and he stands by it. He wants to see thunderf00t “being drummed out of the movement” for his behaviour (behaviour = exploiting a backdoor to gain access to a private mailing list and disclosing contents of said mailing list to a third party).
There was no conspiracy either in the civil sense (” an agreement between persons to deceive, mislead, or defraud others of their legal rights”) or in the criminal sense (“an agreement between persons to break the law in the future”) – and Ed Brayton wrote this *after* they found out that thunderf00t regained access to the mailing list. The “drumming out of the movement” idea was *in response* to thunderf00t exploiting a backdoor to regain access to the mailing list.
August 11, 2012 at 3:35 pm
There was no “tweet” conspiracy. (That’s a reference to the Michael Payton matter.) There were people voicing criticisms; that’s it. (The nonsense about firing someone was from someone else not connected with FtB or TF; that was out of line; but it wasn’t anything to do with FtB or TF or a “tweet conspiracy”.)
The other thing was the reaction to Thunderf00t’s underhand illegitimate access to the email list.
In response to that, the people on the email list he was trying to access indicated that this ought to make Thunderf00t a pariah and individuals on that list indicated that they’d be doing what they could to keep him out of any kind of position within the skeptical community.
GOOD. That’s the RIGHT response to someone behaving as Thunderf00t did. I see no indication of any great plan or conspiracy on how anyone would do this or what specific actions might be taken. It seems to have been individuals speaking on the list immediately after learning what Thunderf00t was up to.
You think that individuals should apologise simply for being angry at Thunderf00t or deciding that they would react to his actions by doing their best to keep him out of the community? (I’m dubious that there actually is a community, but hell yes I’d want to keep him out of any meetings or conferences or whatever after this.)
Or do you see some indication (which I have not seen as yet) that there was any kind of organized conspired response to Thunderf00t’s illegitimate access to the mail list? There hadn’t been TIME for any such organization. Ed’s own remark was made almost immediately after the hack/access/whatever was discovered. That’s not conspiracy.
And if perchance some kind of more organized communal response occurs… why on Earth should anyone apologize for that, do you think?
August 11, 2012 at 3:55 pm
@kesara
Thanks for clearing up the timeline.
I think you mean front door. Applying for acceptance on an e-mail list and having it accepted is not a backdoor.
I am not interested in some childish definition debate with a disingenuous idiot who won’t even read the second sentence ( to get you started. A conspiracy may also…).
August 11, 2012 at 4:12 pm
“I think you mean front door. Applying for acceptance on an e-mail list and having it accepted is not a backdoor.”
– It was a backdoor because he bypassed the standard means of authentication. The software that they use for the FTB backchannel never expires an invitation ticket under default settings. This was incompetence on the side of the responsible admin, but doesn´t change the fact that thunderf00t exploited a security backdoor to gain access to a mailing list he was kicked out of.
How would you respond to a burglar who entered your home because you left the window open by accident and who excuses his behaviour by saying “I didn´t break into Namefags house! He left the window open, that´s not “really” breaking in!” ?
“I am not interested in some childish definition debate with a disingenuous idiot who won’t even read the second sentence ( to get you started. A conspiracy may also…).”
– …refer to a group of people who make an agreement to form a partnership in which each member becomes the agent or partner of every other member and engage in planning or agreeing to commit some act. I take it that you meant “conspiracy” in this sense then. But, since this definition implies no illegal or unethical behaviour whatsoever – what was your point in using that word ?
August 11, 2012 at 4:55 pm
@kesara
The standard means of authentication is to send an e-mail asking for authentication which is what happened (as far as I am aware). He walked right on in bold as brass. You clearly don’t know what the fuck you are talking about. An example of a backdoor into an e-mail server is the spam filter.
Wikipedia is not a dictionary, you got caught being a disingenuous idiot trying to draw me into a retarded definitions debate. FFS grow up.
August 11, 2012 at 5:11 pm
“The standard means of authentication is to send an e-mail asking for authentication which is what happened (as far as I am aware).”
– No, you are wrong again (could you tell me why you have such strong opinions on a matter you know so little about ?)
He was kicked of the mailing list, but the mailserver they used does not expire an invitation ticket, meaning he could sign up *again* with the link in his original invitation, and the admin does not get an email indicating that someone who was removed from the mailing list has rejoined under default settings.
“He walked right on in bold as brass. You clearly don’t know what the fuck you are talking about. An example of a backdoor into an e-mail server is the spam filter.”
– Which is based on your “as far as I´m aware”, which you were not (again). An IT security “backdoor” is any method method that allows you to ignore standard authentication – which thunderf00t did. He relied on the fact that mailman (the program that they used) does not expire an invitation ticket under default settings, so he could rejoin without being invited and without anyone, including the admin, being aware of the fact that he did that.
“Wikipedia is not a dictionary, you got caught being a disingenuous idiot trying to draw me into a retarded definitions debate. ”
– NO, U!
“FFS grow up.”
– Seriously ? A /b/tard telling me to grow up ? That´s cute.
August 11, 2012 at 5:19 pm
@kesara
Either you are dumb as a stump or you are drunk.
Which is it?
August 11, 2012 at 5:23 pm
thunderf00t, in case you follow the comment thread – I hope you have a good look at the people that still support your behaviour.
Juvenile /b/tards whose hostility is only surpassed by their ignorance.
If nothing else tells you that you are fucking up big time at the moment, this should.
August 11, 2012 at 9:25 pm
Kesara, don’t worry Namefag is butthurt because PZ or someone at FtBs ‘silenced’ him/her. How Namefag manages to actually express opinions in the face of immense telepathic pressure from FtBs can only be attributed to the special tin-foil hat (s)he wears.
August 12, 2012 at 3:20 am
@oolon
” don’t worry” -read – there there it will be OK, you got called on your retardation but I still support you.
August 11, 2012 at 1:40 pm |
August 11, 2012 at 4:32 pm |
Hah! This guy doesn’t argues that he knows his enemy and knows himself. But is unaware of the escapes of FfTB’s?
The argument is so circular. He knows his side, but there is no side? He’s unaware of the FfTB’s paranoia that drives them to circle the wagons and demonize anyone who happens to tweet that he doesn’t enjoy reading their blog network?
Why not take your own advice? Rejecting mountains of evidence easily accessed using that equipment right below the webcam.
LOL This guy is the text book example of an arrogant new atheist. What about focusing on that mission statement he’s outlined as the single issue that self-defined atheist activists agree on? No he is taking a break from the pressing problem of an impending theocracy to attack another atheist for attempting to expose the corrosive elements rampant within the secular community.
But he knows “the enemy?” Who is the enemy? Judeo-Christian moral principles or Thunderfoot? Amazing that he gives the FTBullies a free pass.
TogetherforPeace is spot-on as usual.
August 11, 2012 at 3:15 pm |
Nothing gives me more pleasure than seeing Thunderf00t self destruct before my very eyes. Keep it up!
August 11, 2012 at 9:27 pm |
Pretty pathetic – you are another god bot dropping in to say hi?
August 11, 2012 at 3:34 pm |
PZ and the Skepchicks were wrong, and they should be criticized. If they revealed private e-mails from their list serve that would be wrong too, but that doesn’t give everyone else license to make unwelcome publication of the contents of a private listserve. A boundary was crossed.
Thunderf00t’s postings about PZ and the skepchicks were spot on, but revealing contents of a private listserves is over the line. It’s not justified by hypocrisy of FTB.
I wish you well Thunderf00t, and I hope you continue to call out FTB for what they stand for.
August 11, 2012 at 3:45 pm |
I think that it is important to point out that
(1) Thunderf00t had already exploited the listserv and had been spying on FTB for a couple of weeks before Michael Payton wrote the tweet that he was so criticized for and that
(2) Not Thunderf00t nor anyone else has provided evidence that anyone on the FTB network was conspiring to get Michael Payton fired; even though Thunder has full access to the relevant listserv emails all he has shown is that FTB members were conspiring TO WRITE PUBLICLY about Michael Payton and his tweet… which is exactly what a blog network does.
Lets keep things in perspective guys. I love thunderf00t as much as anyone and have been a subscriber and avid supporter of his for nearly 6 years now; but he is really not looking good at the moment. I will stay subscribed to his youtube channel out of respect for his work until he decides to answer to the evidence of his actions.
August 11, 2012 at 3:54 pm |
This.
Also:
“all he has shown is that FTB members were conspiring TO WRITE PUBLICLY about Michael Payton and his tweet… ”
– Exactly. And, what thunderf00t forgot to mention, is that they *did* exactly that (writing publicly about it) more than a week before he wrote this post!
thunderf00t, if you are reading this – many commenters here seem to think that this was a conspiracy which you exposed. You are misleading your followers.
August 11, 2012 at 9:29 pm |
They are misleading themselves as well – either through irrational hatred of FtBs or irrational fanboyism.
August 11, 2012 at 4:06 pm |
It seems that FTB is bit like Scientology, or the Catholic church, post any criticisms and the faggots fanboy autistic followers run over here and shout and scream like the girly-men they are.
How many complained about wikileaks….about Palin having to release emails…..consistency!
Wow just think how better the world would be with such people in charge……….oh no, just ‘Imagine’. Poor old Thunder would be excommunicated……
August 11, 2012 at 9:30 pm |
God bot trying to troll bit further down the thread… Move along nothing to see here…
August 12, 2012 at 12:57 pm |
Oh does the little bunny not like cwiticism? Pretty happy to point out others problems but strangely incapable of seeing a witch hunt, when they are part of it.
August 11, 2012 at 4:12 pm |
thunderfoot is a douche. that is all.
August 11, 2012 at 4:23 pm |
“faggots fanboy autistic followers run over here and shout and scream like the girly-men they are”
Yep! You guys are more rational and never resort to name calling. Wikileaks is certainly on the same level is Tfoot violating privacy rights of the individuals on FTB.
August 11, 2012 at 5:22 pm |
Name calling? Is that irrational? I thought it was an accurate description and of course Myers never calls people names…no never!
Wikileaks may not in your view be on the same level, but your view is incorrect. The difference in response is telling from people who consider themselves Progressive….predictably dishonest, hysterical and overwrought.
August 12, 2012 at 3:34 am |
My view IS correct. No way they are comparable. Not even close. My point is even more proven by your continued defense of an irrational comment.
August 12, 2012 at 12:51 pm |
Yeah what a great comeback from the ‘rational’ atheist. Is it possible for you to write anything without using this totemic word?
Would you like to answer the questions?
Let’s see wikileaks steals/acquires lots of emails and releases their contents……… I can see completely different!
mongo!
August 11, 2012 at 4:31 pm |
Hello! I was wondering if anyone would be willing to debate this particular issue on my blog. The link is here http://theuncynic.wordpress.com/2012/08/11/debate-proposal-are-thunderf00ts-actions-justified/
The debate must be civil, arguments must be presented in a formal and logical fashion. No caps lock, ad homs, character assassinations, etc.
August 11, 2012 at 5:12 pm |
Thunderf00t you really need to chill, this quest for revenge is getting ridiculous.
Yes, PZ was an asshole for kicking you off FTBs just for saying a few things he disagreed with. I’m happy to read all you want to write about how FTBs is an inquisitorial hivemind with a hypocritical name.
However, you are crossing a line by spying on them in this manner. Furthermore you’re just legitimizing PZ’s claim that you are the asshole in this situation.
August 12, 2012 at 12:33 am |
“[about Thunderfoot] Furthermore you’re just legitimizing PZ’s claim that you are the asshole in this situation.”
Quite frankly, PZ is in no position to lecture anybody about assholes.
August 11, 2012 at 6:33 pm |
To all those people gettin’ so high and mighty here, how many of you, (like me) really enjoyed it last year when PZ Myers managed to hack into a conference call made by the producers of that creationist movie?
August 11, 2012 at 7:11 pm |
Oh, you mean that PR exercise for Expelled? Not the same thing, dude. Publicity =/= privacy.
August 11, 2012 at 7:35 pm |
Yeah, I enjoyed that also. It was great.
Couple of significant differences, however.
(1) The conversation Myers was listening to on the hacked phone number was being broadcast in public at the same time.
(2) Myers’ first actions (other than merely using the phone to listen to the broadcast) was not to pass private information along to other people, but rather to out himself to the people he had hacked by joining in their public conversation.
(3) On being asked to hang up, he did so.
To be a more comparable with Thunderfoot’s hack, you want need something in which
(1) The conversation which Myers hacked into was private, rather than one being broadcast to the world at the same time
(2) The actual actions Myers took beyond listening were something done secretly and without knowledge of people he hacked
(3) On his being discovered somehow by others, and disconnected, he repeatedly tried to hack in again.
So yeah. PZ Myers was a naughty boy and we loved it. But apart from that the comparison falls apart at the seams almost at once. As do all the attempts to paint this as just two groups being equally evil to each other.
It is not. Thunderf00t’s actions are orders of magnitude worse than anything else in this little comic drama. Thunderf00t is far and away the bad guy here. It’s not even a close call; and you don’t have to be a fan of FtB or Myers to see that.
August 11, 2012 at 8:50 pm |
Couple of significant straw-men, however.
(1) The blog Thunderfoot was commenting was broadcast on the Internet the same time.
(2) Thunderfoot’s first action (other than merely blogging on FTB) was not to pass private information along to other people, but rather to out himself to the people he had hacked by joining in their public conversation.
(3) On being asked to hang up, he did so.
August 11, 2012 at 10:38 pm |
Are you cookin’?
Thunderf00t hacked into a private backchannel, so you’re already off at #1.
Thunderf00t passed on private information to an unknown number of third parties. At least one third party notified FTB, which is how they found out about the illegal entry to their system. All we have is TF’s word that he didn’t do more. His integrity is 0, so why anyone believes him is a mystery.
As far as we know he still has the private correspondences and confidential information they contain. When he got kicked out the second time, he tried to get back in 3 more times–so, no, he didn’t hang up.
Shockingly, a defender of TF is literally wrong about everything.
August 11, 2012 at 9:00 pm |
To be a more comparable with Thunderfoot’s hack, you want need something in which
(1) The conversation which Myers hacked into was private. Myers had no permission to penetrate the two way conversation. I admire his clever hacking of this.
(2) The actual actions Myers took beyond listening were entering the conversation (without permission) and publishing the results. (without permission)
(3) On his being discovered somehow by others, and disconnected, he repeatedly tried to hack in again.
Thunderfoot didn’t actually ‘hack’ into anything. He was invited to join this ‘Listserv’-like mail-list. The ‘mail-list’ managers simply forgot, or didn’t know, how to ban him.
So yeah. PZ Myers was a naughty boy and we loved it.
So is thunderf00t.
August 11, 2012 at 10:43 pm |
1) No, it wasn’t. It was a public press conference that Stein’s PR firm manipulated by not allowing reporters to ask questions. There was nothing private about it. One of the worst ways to have a private conversation is by inviting reporters to listen in and write about it. Dumb statements by Ken: 1 for 1.
2) Stein’s people announced the call in number over the non-private phone conference. PZ called in, made comments, and then published them on his blog. Again, this was a press conference called by a PR firm working for Stein, there was never any intent to keep that private. Dumb statements by Ken: 2 for 2.
3) No, that’s not what happened, you made it up. And TF was removed from the network. Regardless of how he got in, he violated a federal statute by evesdropping and gather private correspondences from a network he did not belong to. Here’s the statute:
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2011-title18/html/USCODE-2011-title18-partI-chap121-sec2701.htm
Dumb statements by Ken: 3 for 3. Nice work.
August 11, 2012 at 11:54 pm |
Ken … wow. Just wow.
August 12, 2012 at 7:27 am |
wow Chris. Just wow. What an amazingly insightful and original comment. Wow.
August 11, 2012 at 8:22 pm |
Keep on rocking, tf00t! The FTBullies are a gang of shameless hypocrites! If I were you, I’d publish EVERYTHING. No mercy! But hey, I don’t live in a country where you get life in prison for spilling your coffee either. You have my support!
August 11, 2012 at 9:54 pm |
Thunderfoot,
While the way you obtained the E-mails is morally questionable, as far as I know, you used them to inform a person that his job might be in peril, without giving away personal information of the people who wrote the E-mails.
If this is correct, and you only used the content to warn someone, and didn’t give any personal information while doing so, then I consider what you did to gain the E-mails the lesser of two evils.
August 11, 2012 at 11:03 pm |
I’m sorry but your understanding of the situation is incorrect, or at least incomplete. TF accessed the listserv a full month before any conversation happened regarding Mr. Payton. Furthermore, none of the emails TF forwarded included any direct references to seeking Mr. Payton’s removal from a leadership position at CFI, they were simply complaints about Mr. Payton’s ill-considered tweet. It’s true that TF redacted the headers and identifying information from the messages, but the larger point is that he still has the messages he accessed through unauthorized means, and those messages include personal information about some FTB bloggers that they want to remain private. Many of these bloggers are innocent bystanders with no opinion on the TF/PZ feud, and the only assurance they have that the information won’t be misused is TF’s word, which I’m sure you can understand they have little incentive to trust.
TF used unethical means to access a private listserv that he was explicitly removed from, for no apparent reason other than his own ego. I can think of no other reason why TF would want to access those backchannel emails when he did, and if he has a reason for his actions he hasn’t been forthcoming in this comment thread.
August 12, 2012 at 12:06 pm |
I am sure he already had this information previously when he was fucking added to the list before all of this nonsense.
When you’re on a mailing list and you click the “Unsubscribe” button, does that delete all of the messages you received previously from that list? No. It doesn’t. It’s the same thing here.
August 12, 2012 at 1:25 pm |
No, again your understanding of the situation is incomplete. While TF was blogging at FTB he was given access to the FTB listserv, and from that initial membership he would have certain pieces of information, such as Natalie Reed’s real name. Please note – my opinion is that even in that situation it would be unethical for TF to release that information because while he was a member of the listserv he presumably agreed with the listserv privacy disclaimer. However, the situation changes entirely after his dismissal from FTB. At that point he was removed from the listserv and his authority to access the listserv was revoked. The fact that the admins were ignorant of the software they were running does not absolve TF of his responsibility to respect their wishes regarding his access of their private system.
In short, some FTB bloggers are worried about what TF will do with the information he legitimately gained access to, and other FTB bloggers are upset with TF for exploiting a system vulnerability to re-access a system from which he had been explicitly removed.
August 11, 2012 at 11:27 pm |
ctaudajklplenofetiqq
August 11, 2012 at 11:29 pm |
qudiccokeggitrplemig
August 11, 2012 at 11:29 pm |
vppemlagomecajelgahd
August 11, 2012 at 11:30 pm |
skakarfdzirufithrgeo
August 11, 2012 at 11:30 pm |
lagomecajelgahdissky
August 12, 2012 at 1:57 am |
It seems like it’s Natalie’s role in the FTB food chain to play the butthurt little victim that the more aggressive bloggers can point to and claim is being hurt. Is there any evidence –at all– that Natalie Reed’s IRL name has been published, or released to anyone at all? Or is it simply the case that she feels “threatened” that TF has managed to hack the mailing list that happen to have her info? Sounds more like the latter to me. And, more generally, an excuse to go off on a rant about how it’s the actions of the eeeeevillll cis/straight/white/male clique in charge of atheism and how she wants no part of it. (Which is fine, because I want no part of her either.)
Oh, and comparing libertarians to white supremacists while stating that calling her “radical feminist” or “far left” is “dehumanizing”. Some people are utterly *blind* to their own contradictions, I must say.
August 12, 2012 at 2:07 am |
Thunder, there are a lot of issues here I feel you need to address.
1. What was your plan when you let yourself back onto the mailing list? Did you plan to comb FtB’s emails for embarrassing or incriminating information? What was the purpose and why did you try to get back in after you were kicked out the second time?
2. http://freethoughtblogs.com/zinniajones/2012/08/the-day-my-entire-body-of-work-became-unreadable-a-freethought-blogs-story/ This is the post that Zinnia made about Michael Payton. Nowhere in it does she call for Michael to be fired. PZ also linked to her post on his blog, but his post is equally innocuous. If you have explicit evidence of FtB conspiring to have him fired, could you post it please? What you’ve given us is nothing but speculation.
3. Where did you get your information that there were calls for Michael to be fired? I did a Google search and the only links that came up where to your blog and the blogs of FtB bloggers writing about what you did.
4. I’m not sure of this, but the chatter on FtB seems to suggest that you forwarded these e-mails to more than one person. True or false?
5. What precautions, if any, did you take to ensure the security of the FtB bloggers’ private information, especially Natalie Reed?
These are the issues I believe need to be addressed by you. What you’ve done here is very questionable.
August 12, 2012 at 2:51 am |
Good questions. Don’t expect answers.
August 12, 2012 at 4:40 am |
Where is the FlagrantTrollBackers chorus of TF is lying nobody from our cabal called CFI?
When someone accused me of something I didn’t do I deny it immediately and strongly.
August 12, 2012 at 5:16 am |
addendum.
Here is how an honest innocent party would have acted.
1) Make the following statement – I have contacted every person on the e-mail list and asked if they or their associates called CFI and every person has responded negatively. Nobody from our cabal has done what we are accused of doing.
2) Publish all of the e-mails relating to the tweet, Michael Payton, and the CFI; with anything that could reveal Natalie or other conspirators personal info removed.
ForgetThisBullshit did not do this because they are guilty as sin. They try to draw attention away by spouting tangential garbage about how their conspiracy was uncovered.
August 12, 2012 at 5:48 am |
Haha, what?
TF has all of the e-mails, he already published parts of them, he has yet to produce a single example of anyone from FTB trying to negatively affect Patyon’s employment. Beyond that, he has yet to produce a single thing in any of the e-mails that weren’t published publicly on FTB.
It’s not FTB’s burden to prove that they didn’t do anything wrong. It’s TF’s burden to show that any of his paranoid bullshit is remotely plausible. He can’t manage that even after he snuck into a private exchange and stole confident information.
It’s the CRU hack all over again: HE SAID TRICK, HE SAID TRICK, GLOBAL WARMING IS A HOAX!
August 12, 2012 at 6:40 am |
In my experience. Innocent people declare their innocence. Guilty people try to deflect the conversation.
Go and ask Richard Brayton why FarceTravestyBurlesque has over 9000 words blubbering about this and not one single denial that they did it!
A denial would be such blatant lies (and they would be called on it so) they won’t actually deny that someone in their little cabal of trolls mad that call.
Think about it critically for a change.
August 12, 2012 at 5:56 pm
You can scroll up in this thread to see a statement by Zinnia, herself, where she says that TF never produced any evidence that anyone at FTB went after Payton’s job BECAUSE NO ONE DID.
It’s unambiguous. The denial is in this goddamn thread, and, of course, you’re still playing this bullshit game of demanding that they prove a negative.
TF made the positive claim that they were going to cost Payton his job, that’s why he HAD to release the e-mails. Nothing in the e-mails remotely suggests that they were after his job, nor is there anything in the e-mails that wasn’t posted publicly.
Think about it critically? Holy shit. This is a serious problem for our “movement.” The paranoia, rationalizations, and wide-eyed idiocy that is usually restricted to JFK conspiracy theorists, 9-11 Truthers, and Moon landing deniers is thick with the TF supporters.
Use your fucking head. Your arguments are just atrocious, and you’re ignoring readily available evidence.
August 13, 2012 at 3:00 am
You are correct to point out that I should have checked the thread carefully.
TF
“Indeed it turned out that merely hours after this tweet, CFI Canada had been contacted with calls for his dismissal.”
vs
ZJ
“His job *wasn’t* threatened.”
Ed
” As far as I know, it’s simply false.” (yep to my shame I gave the s(c)eptic tank a few hits)
So we are at the he said he said situation, and I guess the only people who could answer the question are the folks at CFI.
While TF does not actually say that CFI was contacted by someone from FalseThreatBawlers it is implied.
August 13, 2012 at 3:54 am
Yes, implied by TF, the guy that weaseled his way back onto a private server in violation of federal statutes, then strongly implied he did this to save Payton’s job.
Of course, he snuck onto the server a month before Payton was an issue, and he has yet to reveal anything that remotely suggests that FTB was going after his job. Further more, despite having access to these “super secret” e-mails and viewing himself as the next Assange, TF hasn’t even produced anything that wasn’t already publicly published.
The burden is not on FTB to respond to outlandish claims for which there is no evidence. The burden rests with the people making the charge.
“Mr. President, can we assume that because you haven’t denied that you’re a Kenyan Anti-colonialist socialist muslim hitler that you are in fact those things?”
TF is trying to use Payton as a smokescreen for his wrongdoing. If it’s working on anyone, those folks need to do some soul searching.
August 12, 2012 at 8:44 am |
Fuck “Natalie Reed” and all that faux outrage. Thunderfoot surely already knows his/her real name, he just needs to check his archive folders. (PZ put him on the email list when he joined FTB. When he left, PZ didn’t jump into his hotmail and delete all the old messages!)
No one gives fuck that you’re a heroine addict or crack addict. Or whatever.
Thunderfoot is a fucking hero and sickens me to see all this bile and deflection.
FTB and skepchicks are a fucking joke. They are supposed to champion skepticism. They behave like the Scientology cult.
Thunderf00t exposed coercion and bullying; truly disgusting behaviour and there are just legions of FTB retards moaning about “theft”.
Guess what, I torrent TV shows all the time. yes, I steal! I Love Wikileaks, I think Bradley Manning is a hero.
We’re talking about fucking email list, this is not hacking .
Watch this emo video: http://t.co/WSnGsR5Q.. it’s as if TF has raped someone.
Fucking feminists twats like Martin Robbins, all circle jerking to crucify TF. He’s the victim!
August 12, 2012 at 11:03 am |
thunderf00t exposed nothing whatsoever because the “publicly making a minor deal out of it” stuff already did happen 8 days *before* he even wrote this post you fucking moron.
August 12, 2012 at 5:51 pm |
“No one gives fuck that you’re a heroine addict or crack addict. Or whatever.”
Try getting a job as a transgender, recovering addict you fuckwad. Maybe nobody on the internet cares – but real life people do. Pull your head out of your ass for a second and think about it.
August 16, 2012 at 10:56 pm |
And you think that will change if people keep hiding?
You make things normal by being around people and “appearing normal”. You cannot legislate or sue for tolerance, the only thing you create is more animosity. But maybe that’s really what some of these activists want, because if they would succeed, they’d be out of a job and lose their reason to exist.
August 12, 2012 at 2:41 am |
FTB is the same people that praised Bradly Manning for his email hiest and contribution to Wikileaks. Nice to see the same thing done to them.
August 12, 2012 at 2:52 am |
What was said in those e-mails that wasn’t said publicly in blog posts? What is the revelation, that FTB folks were astonished by TF’s lack of professionalism and basic human decency?
August 12, 2012 at 4:47 am |
The issue here is that FTB and Skepchick are only sceptics when it comes to Theism. For other issues they are as fanatical as any religious fundamentalist. PZ Myers is possibly the worst of the lot of them. He’s a fundamentalist left-winger politically for lack of a better word which he has consistently shown on his blog. Not that there’s anything wrong with been left or right wing politically. The problem occurs when you treat it like your religion.
He once accused Christopher Hitchens of advocating genocide for example, a position anyone familiar with Hitchens’ work knows goes against everything he wrote or stood for. Why did Myers do this ? because he didn’t like Hitchens’ politics.
Myers is not as much a sceptic as he is a political fanatic.
August 12, 2012 at 5:46 am |
PZ Meyers vs Hitchens
Rebecca Watson vs. Richard Dawkins
Both holding positions and producing statements laughable beyond belief. This is what I’m afraid is the status of the movement. Irrelevant people spitting down while standing on the shoulder of giants, their minds riding on top of ridiculous delusions of grandeur,
August 12, 2012 at 10:39 am |
Surely you mean Rebecca Dworkins.
August 12, 2012 at 1:04 pm |
Don’t forget Sam Harris vs PeeZus because PeeZus thinks Harris is a racist.
August 12, 2012 at 8:28 am |
You have hit the nail on the head!
August 12, 2012 at 8:27 am |
TO ALL THE PEOPLE BITCHING THAT HE MIGHT REVEAL THAT HEROIN ADDICTS IDENTITY
When he was initially on the mailing list, he already had all this info. This is nothing new.
All this faux outrage is just an attempt to discredit Thunderf00t’s finding; disgusting behaviour
August 12, 2012 at 8:37 am |
Go back to making anti-creationist videos. It was your strong suit and why most of us came to respect you as a voice in the community. This kind of stuff is just pathetic. I haven’t been the biggest fan of how everything has gone down over this issue, but you’re only making the problem worse.
You had a voice and you’ve wasted it with petty bickering and petulant behaviour.
August 12, 2012 at 9:00 am |
Hey, supporters of FT Bloggers and fearless Skepchicks, why don’t you click on Skepchick.org adverts, and FTBlog.com adverts once or twice? (Press refresh to load new advert)
It might be like giving your favorite people a little tip! They are in a time of need and it’s up to us to step up to the plate and help our fellow feminists, male and female.
We know that PZ Myers and Surly Amy need all the help they can get. The misogynistic assclows are making them cry and taunting them with hate jewellery.
August 12, 2012 at 11:17 am |
Just in case you all thought that TF was the only person willing to use unauthorized access to a computer system: http://tinyurl.com/8lcodah
Somehow I doubt she’ll receive the same level of condemnation TF has received.
August 12, 2012 at 12:18 pm |
Oh for fucks sake!
Can Thunderf00t please get back to actually doing skepticism/atheism stuff?
Yes I know there was a kerfuffle between him and FtB, and Rebecca Watson to I’m sure and everyone has an opinion about that.
Say what you want Thunderf00t and assorted T-f00t fans, Watson and Myers are still actively doing stuff on atheism and skepticism! Thunderf00t isn’t!
There are more important things on this Earth than T-f00t’s hate-on for Myers/FtB/Watson et al. The guy actually used to do decent videos debunking creationists, remember those?
They were actually quite good!
August 12, 2012 at 1:19 pm |
IVe reviewed much of the material of “debunking” creationists done in particular by PZ… Im not impressed with how much he “knows” on the subject. As for actually “defeating” them… It equates to defeating children.
August 12, 2012 at 12:22 pm |
Since so many here have repeated the falsehood that thunderf00t ‘hacked’ into that mailing list, let FTB admin Jason Thibeault explain what really happened:
http://freethoughtblogs.com/lousycanuck/2012/08/10/what-thunderf00t-did-and-how
Now Mr. Thibeault is clearly trying to cover their admin’s asses here, but thunderf00t DID NOT NEED to ‘hack’ the list, because FTB’s admins FAILED to ban him from it. Can’t tell from the article if they simply forgot to ban him, or did not read their software manual or did not know how to.
The fact remains that thunderf00t was invited to the list and because of the list administrators’s mistakes, he remained invited to the list. It was not thunderf00t’s responsibility to fix the admin’s mistakes for them when they (allegedly) sent the list to him by mistake.
August 12, 2012 at 1:49 pm |
I’m sorry but your understanding of the situation is incorrect. The fact remains that after TF’s email address was removed from the private listserv he actively took steps to re-access that listserv against the explicit wishes of the private system’s owner. The fact that they were ignorant of how their software operates does not absolve TF of his responsibility to respect their wishes for privacy.
August 12, 2012 at 2:08 pm |
Jason (who isn’t actually the admin; just one of the bloggers who had the background to help out the admin guy Matt) explains it well; and you’ve got it wrong.
The fact is that thunderf00t *was* removed from the list; but that the system did not prevent him from using his original invitation email to add himself back in again after being removed. He did have to add himself back in; however. It was NOT a passive case of still being on the list.
Calling that “still invited” is just playing stupid with words.
He did not remain invited. Rather, the system was poorly set up so that his old invitation was able to be used to resubscribe after be had been removed It is exactly like someone being invited to a party, then thrown out, and then using their old invitation to get back in. It doesn’t mean that they are still invited. It means that the security system did not give adequate protection again someone misrepresenting themselves as still being invited using an old invitation letter.
The fact remains that thunderfoot was removed from the list, but that because of administration mistakes he retained the capacity to add himself back in. He had to actively do that. Having done so he’s lost a LOT of credibility. Some people apparently still think what he did was okay. People think all kinds of weird things. But that’s the extreme. Most folks recognize this was a breach of ethics and reflects poorly on thunderfoot; the disagreements are mostly over whether it was actually illegal to resubscribe in that way; whether the actions of FtB were also unethical; and whether the reaction to his behaviour has been an over-reaction or justifiable anger.
Be that as it may; it most certainly *is* his responsibility not to deliberately take advantage of security errors to access a private list from which he had been removed. Having found the flaw I agree that he is not responsible for informing the administrators of their error. But that would have been the decent thing to do. He’s not obliged, though.
He IS obliged not to resubscribe just because there’s an error in the systems which makes it possible.
August 12, 2012 at 6:14 pm |
Shocked that good old Ken didn’t bother to read the statute I offered earlier. Here it is again:
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2011-title18/html/USCODE-2011-title18-partI-chap121-sec2701.htm
Read it, digest it, consider the implications.
It doesn’t matter how TF gained access. The statute says nothing about “hacking.” He gained access to private correspondences that he knew he wasn’t supposed to have access to. From the perspective of the law, nothing else matters.
You can try to whitewash TF’s loathsome behavior by quibbling over irrelevant details, but outside of internet jack-fucks, like Ken, this “debate” means nothing.
August 16, 2012 at 12:20 am |
” intentionally accesses without authorization a facility through which an electronic communication service is provided; or
(2) intentionally exceeds an authorization to access that facility”
A listserve is probably not such a facility. And even it is, the communication is not in electronic storage.
“and thereby obtains, alters, or prevents authorized access to a wire or electronic communication while it is in electronic storage in such system”
Either way, Title 18 has no remedy for this situation.
August 16, 2012 at 11:20 pm |
Here’s some commentary on the law: “his provision is intended to address “computer hackers” and corporate spies. The provision is not intended to criminalize access to “electronic bulletin boards,” which are generally open to the public.”
http://www.justice.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usam/title9/crm01061.htm
Even if TF might qualify, and I doubt that, the FBI is not going to investigate nor is the Attorney General going to prosecute this case unless there is some actual harm which so far isn’t the case.
August 12, 2012 at 1:28 pm |
http://twitpic.com/aiha5v Buy your Surlamics NOW!!!
Support Amy against this vile misogynist!
August 12, 2012 at 1:31 pm |
http://twitpic.com/ahecd0
Surly Amy about Doctor and surgeon and veteran activist Harriet Hall
August 12, 2012 at 3:07 pm |
Thunderf00t simply has nothing to apologise for. Not for his opinions nor for his “re-membership” on the TB mailing list. Nilch. Nada. Zip.
The trolls at FreeFromThoughtBlogs began preparing to attack him well before his first post. The evidence is damning. These trolls seem to have a habit of attacking and abusing all who suggest that they perhaps look at an issue differently rather than understanding the actual argument and criticising it’s weaknesses.
These trolls were selectively releasing e-mails from the mailing list without their authors’ permission well before Thunderf00t alledgedly leaked some e-mails that exposed corrupt reprehensible behaviour at FTB. It is only now that these trolls are jumping up and down alledging Thunderf00t breached their privacy.
Sorry this bleating has nothing to do with their concern about privacy. It has everything to do with a hateful smear campaign against Thunderf00t. It is as plain as day.
August 12, 2012 at 3:28 pm |
Might I add that the majority of these trolls haunting FreeFromThoughtBlogs launch their attacks from under cover of anonymity. They are ‘nobodys’ who have contributed nothing to human progress and they typically attack the greatest thinkers of our time. Absolute SCUM.
They need to apply their penchant for creating harrasment guidelines, to their own online community.
One might not agree with everything Thunderf00t writes but one can certainly appreciate his reasoning and the passion he has for rational thought.
Thunderf00t please remember that you have the wider online community behind you.
August 13, 2012 at 3:13 am |
So… as far as I can tell, the majority of FTB commenters here have used Natalie Reed’s safety/security/job security/anonymity as a platform for their assertions that Thunderf00t has done something INCREDIBLY harmful and unethical.
Has no one here, ever considered that if she so valued her anonymity, she should not have disclosed her real name in ANY way whatsoever on the internet? I know some people will jump on this with the ‘you’re blaming the victim argument’, but you must keep in mind that she is portraying this as an issue of extreme importance to her -that it is absolutely imperative that her identity is not widely known, lest she lose her job or experience potential abuse in other forms. I do not claim to place imperative on preserving my own well-being, while walking out to an alleyway in the worst part of town at 3am in the morning. Sure, if someone decides to mug/assault/kill me, they would undoubtedly be the ones in the wrong, but it would also be clear to any rational observer that I was clearly acting in such a way as to unnecessarily endanger myself (If there’s “rape culture”, why isn’t there “assault culture” or “murder culture” etc..? Or maybe there is, and I’m just totally ignorant – in any case, that entire class of argument is idealistic, and reeks of entitlement).
Second, but related, point: If anyone on the mailing list ever had any reason to want to reveal her true identity, it would seem (from what I’ve read) to me that it would be exceedingly simple for them to do so. All they’d have to do is shout it loudly out to anyone with whom they wanted to disclose that supposedly ‘private’ information (which, she claims, upon disclosure would undoubtedly ruin her life forever and ever). This also means, that if Thunderf00t were such a ginormous asshole as to have ever wanted to out her identity as a trans, he could have done so at any time, and could do so at any time (as could ANYONE else who has seen or otherwise acquired that information, for that matter(you know, information can be passed OUTSIDE of the internet by word of mouth as well..(well, I’m assuming you know that))), regardless of whether or not he illicitly accessed the listserv again.
So I’m hoping that you all understand by now, that if she was fearing for her personal security, or her life, she probably should not EVER have disclosed that information to ANYONE, much less to people who could arguably be considered ‘strangers’ on the internet – the best place to get your shit revealed to everyone.
What am I saying? I am saying that no harm has been done to her yet as far as anyone knows, by anyone, yet, and that there has been no actual increase in the POTENTIAL for harm that could be done to her, from before this little fiasco.
August 13, 2012 at 3:41 am |
I like the cut of your jib, sir!
August 16, 2012 at 10:52 pm |
I also question a bit the amount of danger she would be in. Per her profile she lives in Vancouver, BC. Now, Vancouver is a tiny island surrounded by an ocean of conservative / religious shit, but the city itself? I can’t see her getting fired from her job or kicked out of her house because of her past drug use or being trans. This IS after all Canada, not the protection afforded to people here is comparatively high (current Federal Government not withstanding).
I can understand her uneasiness when it comes to being “outed”, but unless there are other things going on that she hasn’t divulged I would put the risk (via Thunderf00t) quite low.
And yes, if she is that paranoid / concerned about her anonymity she should never ever do anything that would allow easy association between her online and real identity.
August 16, 2012 at 11:25 pm |
I’m just gonna strongly disagree. Her information was available to co-workers on a blog, not floating out there on the internet.
And how low is good enough when it comes to losing your job or being the victim of physical violence?
On the flip-side, fear of TF going loose cannon is different from him actually revealing anyone’s information which I’m under the impression he did gain in a trustworthy manner
August 16, 2012 at 11:29 pm |
And, he would’ve already had access to her personal information, as he was once a legitimate member of the mailing list.
August 16, 2012 at 11:44 pm |
I guess I do agree with point two
August 13, 2012 at 3:39 am |
Wow… I read a post late, and it gets commented upon like crazy.
Two things pop out in my mind:
first, there is an irony, or perhaps it’s a paradox, depending on your view ot the topic as being about actors within it, or ideas as objects-in-opposition.
It seems to me that we want to use it as a platform for expression (blogging/vlogging/emailing/social networking/etc.), and more than a few of us understand that it’s a technology that can give us vast reach for our expression, and yet somehow, so many people expect that this reach will not expose them to malicious agency.
On the other side, it seems we expect inviolate privacy and respect of that from others… while we exploit a media pretty much about mass dissemination of information.
Irony…anyone? Anyone?
If someone has already made this point, I apologize. At 760+ comments, this starts to fall into the TL:DR category.
By the way, The above comment is merely a positive, not a normative statement. Of course we should respect others rights to their information.
Normaively, I think it’s a bit asinine to address Thunderf00t in the interrogative mode while asking questions. It’s “innocent until proven guilty” for a reason.
Show proof he “doc dropped” (exposed personal, identifying information about a person or persons to the open worldwideweb), or run along and think of different invective to spew.
August 13, 2012 at 3:50 am |
For the millionth time, the law just does not give a fuck about this childish hair-splitting over “doc dropping.” The relevant federal statute, I’ll link it again, prohibits unauthorized access to private electronic correspondence. As far as the law is concerned, TF was in violation the moment he snuck onto the private listserv, however easy that was.
These weak attempts at defending such a loathsome move are just laughable. Here’s the statute:
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2011-title18/html/USCODE-2011-title18-partI-chap121-sec2701.htm
August 13, 2012 at 4:59 am |
The goalposts are moving again – earlier in this discussion, when the legality of Thunder’s actions were held to be something as of yet unknown, the assertion from FTBers was that it wasn’t a matter of legality, but rather of ethics. Perhaps it is not your intention, but this latest comment would APPEAR to indicate that you’re attempting to shift the focus, yet again, upon the legality of his actions rather than the supposed severity of his ETHICAL violations, the two of which are not directly related.
August 13, 2012 at 11:57 am |
The ethics are obvious, not even sure why that’s a debate. The ethics were settled when he acknowledged what he did in this very post.
Now there’s a stupid back and forth going on about whether he “hacked” into the system or whether it should be called something else. The discussion is pointless. His privileges were clearly removed and he sneaked back on, however he did it.
The justification for this action, that someone was threatening Payton’s job–a point that he has provided no evidence for despite his access to the private e-mails–occurred a month after his unauthorized access was gained.
It’s a very simple situation. It’s clearly unethical and it’s clearly a violation of statute. No goalpost shifting here.
August 13, 2012 at 1:54 pm
I like how you said the ethics of this situation are “not debatable” and how some things are “clearly unethical”.
Best laugh I’ve had all morning! Kudos! 😉
August 13, 2012 at 2:33 pm
I like how you have shitty arguments so you don’t respond with anything resembling substance, you just try, and fail, to offer snark.
The TF Truthers lost this one BAAAD. This is a really, really clear case, only people playing dumb can mount a defense of this horseshit.
August 14, 2012 at 12:59 am
The ethics are anything but obvious. You have merely repeatedly uttered the statement that Thunderf00t gained access when his presence was unwanted, and hence his actions were unethical. Merely restating past actions, then calling them unethical, doesn’t make it so – you must provide a sound and well reasoned argument FOR the ethical value judgement you make. Your absolutist morality is childish and almost religious in nature.
Again, even IF Thunderf00t had indeed illegally accessed the system, that does not inherently imply anything unethical had been done. Secondly, your side (obviously everyone has slightly differing opinions on the issue, but I’m making a general category for simplicity’s sake), has repeatedly failed to convincingly demonstrate that any harm has been done, whatsoever, or that any increase in potential for harm as occurred due to this incident. In fact, your side has very vocally demonstrated that nothing sensitive or harmful had indeed been revealed at all, by showing that nothing Tf00t had uncovered was not later publically released, albeit in slightly more sophisticated and less flamboyantly retarded wording. Ah, but wait, poor Natalie Reed could get her docs dropped /sadface. Oh, but see, I already addressed that in my earlier comment, so if you still think the Natalie Reed thing is a problem, I strongly suggest you scroll up and read that.
August 14, 2012 at 5:36 am
“I like how you have shitty arguments so you don’t respond with anything resembling substance, you just try, and fail, to offer snark.”
Actually the bulk of the argument revolves around Skepchick, which unless I see a citation to the contrary, TF never actually outed her IRL name or her status as a transsexual.
“The TF Truthers lost this one BAAAD. This is a really, really clear case, only people playing dumb can mount a defense of this horseshit”
Lost this one bad? The major thesis is “won’t someone please think about the transsexuals!” I have to admit I was taken in by this at first, but as it’s clear her safety was not compromised and the ONLY e-mails I saw had to do with politics and backstabbing, it’s a bit clear that FTB people were just butthurt.
And I don’t really have an opinion of FTB, and I still think TF is an asshat.
In a bit of an ironic twist it turns out Skepchick posted a .mp3 of PZ crashing a phone conference.
http://skepchick.org/2008/03/audio-of-pz-myers-crashing-the-expelled-teleconference/
The audio file has since been removed, but it’s clear PZ circumvented their phone system by using a code he wasn’t given by an authorized user. I’m not going to blame PZ or accuse him of being a criminal,or an elite 2600 haxx0r, but it does make him a hypocrite as CLEARLY he has no moral issues using such tactics against someone he’s critical on.
I don’t defend TF’s actions, but it doesn’t make it okay to use childish tactics like “think of the transsexuals”.
People keep using free thought, but I don’t think it means what everyone thinks it means.
August 14, 2012 at 12:23 am |
“For the millionth time, the law just does not give a fuck about this childish hair-splitting over “doc dropping.” The relevant federal statute, I’ll link it again, prohibits unauthorized access to private electronic correspondence.”
And I’ll say it again, you are FULL OF SHIT.
People v. Lifshitz, 369 F.3d 173, 190 (2d Cir. 2004),
E-mails do NOT NOT NOT have the reasonable expectation of privacy. Your reasonable expectation of privacy is limited between the sender, and the receiver. Beyond this, the receiver can FORWARD it, just like someone can read someone else’s letter after it’s been sent and received.
“As far as the law is concerned, TF was in violation the moment he snuck onto the private listserv, however easy that was.”
With a valid authorization code given to him by an authorized user to group communications. And your whole statute depends on ACCESSING unauthorized documents, not receiving them. If you hacked my g-mail, and read my mail, yeah. Without financial gain you “might” get up to a year in prison, maybe, not likely. If I invited you to my listserv, gave you a password, and I didn’t want you around anymore, and that password is no longer valid, well, there is NO CRIME. I didn’t exercise due diligence, I would be accountable for any damages that result.
But NO ONE is talking to the FBI, or the CIA, you know the agencies that deal with interstate and international crimes. No one is calling the Czech police, or wherever TF lives. This kind of indicates there was no crime, or at least one to speak of, which means anyone claiming it’s a crime is actually engaging in libel, and is doing the typical butthurt dance.
August 14, 2012 at 1:07 am |
Well put, good sir. Are pinecones always this truthful?
August 14, 2012 at 1:32 am
Well, if you look at pinecone size…
August 16, 2012 at 11:39 pm |
You’re overstating the law here:
“This provision is intended to address “computer hackers” and corporate spies. The provision is not intended to criminalize access to “electronic bulletin boards,” which are generally open to the public.”
http://www.justice.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usam/title9/crm01061.htm
That’s not a rock-solid defense, but add in the likelihood of this being taken up by the FBI and a federal prosecutor and I don’t think TF has any real serious concerns that he will be charged with a federal crime.
As for state torts, maybe there is a case but without any identifiable monetary harm there isn’t much of a case. You need a duty of care, a breach of that duty, and actual harm; I’m not seeing any harm that a court can address because money or injunction is about the only options for a civil court.
August 13, 2012 at 9:16 am |
wow, thunderfoot.. you’re way off the deep end. People have tried to be cordial (or at the minimum, polite) and your tactics and language grows more distasteful with every exchange. And the worst part is, even if you wanted to stop here and turn around – perhaps even apologize a tiny bit – your train now has so much momentum that it can’t be stopped. You’ve entrenched yourself too deeply. It’s sad to see..
August 13, 2012 at 12:31 pm |
“People have tried to be cordial (or at the minimum, polite)”
LOL.
August 13, 2012 at 12:33 pm |
They did. At least at first. Suggesting improvements he may make on the blog, having a dialogue and letting him go pretty much without any remarks.. until he made a shitstorm about it
August 13, 2012 at 12:34 pm |
“Suggesting improvements he may make on the blog”
I take it thunderf00t’s thoughts weren’t adequately free for that that blogger network.
(I.e. he didn’t agree with everyone else to a sufficient extent.)
August 13, 2012 at 2:04 pm
that is complete BS. Did his opinions diverge from the norm on FTB? Yes. Do most contributors have diverging opinions from the norm at FTB, on some topic or other? Yes. Both of these facts being true one must look at what separates TF’s posts from other posts on FTB going against the norm. Not only were they solely negative and at times infantile, they also contributed nothing to the conversation and showed an aversion to serious dialogue. /that/ was the reason for his departure. Your assertion about hidden motives is not ground in reality.
August 13, 2012 at 2:39 pm
I want quotes. And, infantile, huh? WOAH. As opposed to putting quotes of people you don’t like in Comic Sans and incitements to shove a porcupine up one’s ass? No no, on FTB, people are expected to be MATURE.
August 13, 2012 at 12:08 pm |
In my book, you’re all fucking idiots.
Now drop this shit and get back to the actual topic at hand – skepticism – before you all decided to start in-fighting like 12 year old school-girls.
Yes, FTB is full of clichey idiots, but jesus TF did you really have to rejoin their list and give them the ammo required to cry for fucking weeks and once again soil the landscape with their particular brand of histrionics?
seriously people – everybody just needs to grow-the-fuck-up – now.
August 13, 2012 at 12:33 pm |
Perhaps sometimes things need to get worse before they get better.
I’m in favor of giving free reign to FfTB’s drama in the hopes that it eventually eats them up.
This, for example, is what Natalie Reed gets for bringing up her heroin addiction to garner sympathy:
August 13, 2012 at 1:59 pm |
I’ve always said that one cannot bring about change without first starting a revolution.
Viva la drama!
(And somehow I knew that post would contain “trigger alerts”. Wow…)
August 13, 2012 at 2:02 pm |
Natalie proudly banned me from commenting on Skepchick for disagreeing with people. No name-calling, no insults, nothing. Just disagreeing.
I didn’t forget and, yesterday, the junkie fuck got what she had coming to her.
August 14, 2012 at 11:39 am
I have no idea who she is, but why on earth would you join a community, make a fuckload of unnecessary noise about something completely unrelated, then spit the dummy because everybody (except PZ apparently) doesnt just drop everything and suddenly find your shit as important as you do?
Seriously, it’s important to stomp sexism whereever one finds it, but to (very obviously) try to generate as much bullshit as possible all to raise your own profile within the community is pretty sad. Why fuck with us? Go annoy the the model train enthusiasts or something.
Are these people so blind to their own drama that they cant see that the majority of us DO NOT FUCKING CARE ABOUT THEIR HYSTERICAL NONSENSE? It has nothing to do with majority of us, we dont go to TAM and flop our cocks out on the table, and we dont have the time and resources to waste on making a bunch of noise and getting all wound up about something that just doesnt seem to be a big problem! What else can we go off on a tangent about I wonder? Open source software? Nutrition? Whales? South American rainforests? Organ donation?
If someone feels her up at TAM, she should tell me and Ill go lay them out. Until then, she needs to just shut the fuck up about it. Srsly.
August 16, 2012 at 10:59 pm |
That’s called blaming the victim and it’s never a good idea.
August 13, 2012 at 4:42 pm |
I presume Skepchick is keeping quite on this issue because Rebecca Watson was banned from the JREF forum for very similar reasons!
After coming back from a suspension she found she had access to the secret mod section.
Everyone laughed, shrugged their shoulders, and failed to write 20 blogs posts (with mutual links) about it.
August 13, 2012 at 11:47 pm |
Thunderf00t, google your name and PZ Meyers’. Learn to use tags to at least try to combat this little war he has going.
August 14, 2012 at 12:55 am |
you just destroyed my life with ‘hack’ action. 2 days of brainwash. you have no idea what you are doing to people. fuck you. I cant stand it, fuck. People after few nervous breakdowns are totally crushed when they are being told that there is a war and they will be muslim (I already prepeard myselfe for suicide, you fuckers) and ‘informed’ by famous people (!) about situation. I hate you so much you fucker, I didnt deserve that. 48 hours of brain fucking and later after loosing few friends (I have just few) I couldnt even say ‘sorry” someone controled my “facebook”. I was mentaly crushed to many times, becoming more and more quiet. This is not how that world should looks like. I have nothing but some smile I share with others, I am lost without home in forein country. Do you really must make me so miserable? You didn’t teach me anything, if you wanted. You just created weaknes, which is like large, loud, destructive part of me not knowing where to belong (two days of brainfucking me) and that make be weak because I belong nowhere – All I had is inner me but now all together mixed lonely and forsaken by myselfe drown in stres.Sad story of me being a lemming who fell badly. And thats the beginnig of long time like that. I can’t do my job, with these hands and zombie face, that significant muscle pain over chest caused by stres. Fuck you, how dare you to play like that, if between your victims there was someone with small schizophrenia and was brainfucked for 2 days about muslim war he can say good bye to normal life. I feel like shit and have to work. Maybe you ‘changing world for better’ fuckers will use brain and don’t attack people like that, you are worst than any religion ever invented, fuck you.
August 16, 2012 at 3:12 pm |
Are you okay? Maybe you should talk to a therapist or social worker, or a family member if you have any.
August 14, 2012 at 2:07 am |
“I want to do whatever it takes to make sure that he is essentially drummed out of this movement, never invited to speak anywhere again and is forever a pariah.”
1. Look at the average level of audience engagement TF received for his blog posts before this whole debacle took place.
2. Now look at the level of audience engagement afterwards.
Your mission, Ed, has been a spectacular failure. Good work.
August 14, 2012 at 2:20 pm |
FTB are some of the sleaziest, most disingenuous scumbags I’ve seen in years. It’s astounding how they’ve taken this nonsense to epic levels, and all it’s doing is blowing up in their faces.
The fact is that they seem to be embodying some of the worst traits of the catholic church:
– shunning non-compliant members
– blind obedience to an ultimate authority (PZ Meyers)
– groupthink (a textbook example)
– lying and distorting evidence
– ad hominem attacks on anyone who speaks out
– rigid rules for “acceptable’ behavior
– leader worship (with PZ meyers as god’s proxy on Earth)
– ignoring evidence that doesn’t fit their worldview
– etc etc
August 14, 2012 at 3:25 pm |
PZ Meyers said, “I want to do whatever it takes to make sure that he is essentially drummed out of this movement, never invited to speak anywhere again and is forever a pariah.”
Now there’s some real “free thought” for you. Fuck you, PZ! You’re now indistinguishable from the Catholic church and Scientology. Good work in ruining your name and reputation!
There was a time when I respected PZ Meyers, but as of this moment, those feelings are gone.
Shame on you, PZ.
August 14, 2012 at 3:34 pm |
My mistake- that was Ed Brayton, not PZ Meyers. My bad!
August 14, 2012 at 3:30 pm |
Every group that has “free thought” as part of their name should have a Secret Mailing List where they can trash people and conspire to make trouble for their victims.
I mean, that’s what “free thought” is all about, right?
August 16, 2012 at 3:08 pm |
Has Cleenex started to sponsor FTB yet? They seem to be a match made in heaven with all that circle jerk and teary eyedness that seems to be the fabric of FTB.
August 16, 2012 at 3:38 pm |
I wasn’t even familiar with Greg Laden, but here’s a nice commont from his blog:
“Alex, you are not welcome to argue any point but the one I”m making, and you are only welcome to argue it on my side. Because that was the last word. There are places you can go to keep up the drumbeat, but not here. This is not your forum, you do not have a second amendment right to write a single word here and never did. I allowed your stupid comment because I felt like verbally slapping you. That is the only reason.”
August 16, 2012 at 3:47 pm |
“This is not your forum, you do not have a second amendment right to write a single word here”
Ummm, apparently Greg is a bit unclear on the 2nd amendment- it provides the right to bear arms and has nothing to do with free speech. That would be the 1st amendment, something that Greg is *clearly* not familiar with, and clearly not a supporter of. But this is exactly what I’d expect from an idiot like him.
August 18, 2012 at 12:35 pm |
I’d like to see FTB laughed off of the internet.
August 19, 2012 at 3:34 pm |
I’ve been a huge fan for years, but this is doing absolutely fucking no one any good. This is some “The Amazing Asshat” bullshit you’re pulling here. I’m begging you, man, back off. Take your toys and go home. It’d be even better if you apologized. I’m not talking about compromising your personal integrity by retracting your statements. I’m only suggesting you apologize for this breach.
This should have ended when you were fired from FtB. You should have said, “whatever. fuck those guys.” and gone on your merry. You never should have logged back into their mailing list. You should have let it go. You’re shit-stirring where they had no *real* intention of stirring shit. You’re forcing people to choose sides. At this point, you’re bringing it all down on yourself, and you’re willingly feeding the trolls.
LET.
IT.
GO.
August 19, 2012 at 4:13 pm |
Right, Thunderf00t should just let them smear him and spread lies about him, and he should be happy with that!
FUCK. NO.
The group-think assholes at FTB will not find a willing victim here. Nooooo fucking way. Not gonna happen.
August 19, 2012 at 11:47 pm |
You just don’t get it. They weren’t going to smear him. This whole thing was set to blow over until he accessed their private mailing list and passed private conversations to a third party. It was only after that that Brayton made the “drum him out of the movement” remark. TF has brought this shit storm down on himself now.
TF, you may have had a leg to stand on before, but definitely not after this. Let it fucking go. Walk away.
August 20, 2012 at 12:15 am |
“They weren’t going to smear him.”
Are you kidding? They smeared the hell out of him looooooong before any emails were accessed.
August 20, 2012 at 2:50 am
They weren’t going to pursue it any further. They weren’t going to go on a witch hunt to destroy him. It was going to all just fade away. If he was concerned about being attacked, why do something that was sure to provoke one? Why not wait until the unprovoked attack showed itself?
Why do you think that the ONLY thing he came across in the few short weeks he was on the private list was about a third party? And about a situation where no one had actually taken any action beyond a rant among friends on a private mailing list?
August 20, 2012 at 3:03 am
If someone had said something about Natalie Reed wouldn’t that be taken seriously because of the consequences. While certainly less dire, it’s unfair to claim TF didn’t have a good reason to confide in the CFI guy about a possible concerted effort to punish him for expressing his opinion.
And he also came across discussions about stealing from him, not exactly something you would want to wait around until it happened.
August 20, 2012 at 1:07 am |
I think John Loftus’ experience (Debunking Chrstianity [“freethought blog” tag, formerly of FtB but now @ http://www.skepticblogs.com/), although certainly milder, offers a good example of why TF might have been concerned about retaliation and ill will even before he eavesdropped onto the e-mail list.
August 20, 2012 at 3:02 am
I’m not familiar with this exchange as I really don’t follow FtB, except when occasionally someone from TAE posts a link on FB. But regardless, why do something to provoke an attack if you think one’s coming? Why not just let it come and deal with it when it’s real, instead of digging for dirt?
August 20, 2012 at 3:12 am |
Whatever your stance, or lack thereof, clearly TF felt he was treated unfairly by FtB. Maybe letting it all go would’ve been a good idea, but who hasn’t felt the desire to be vindicated when they feel they’ve been wronged.
August 20, 2012 at 4:02 am
“Maybe letting it all go would’ve been a good idea, but who hasn’t felt the desire to be vindicated when they feel they’ve been wronged.”
I think almost everyone has felt this at some point. The problem is when you cross lines like this to do it. And letting it all go was clearly the better idea.
To an extent, I sympathize with TF about how the first round went down, but I could go on about why it was foolish to begin on day 1 with this particular subject. To do it without even testing the waters, and building up cred within that community. Why it was foolish to double-down after the other bloggers responded, generally pissing off PZ and some of the other long-standing bloggers there. And especially why it was extremely foolish to regain access to their private emails.
He’s accomplishing nothing but demonizing himself at this point. He’s doing FtB’s work for them, if you really thought they were going to retaliate.
August 20, 2012 at 7:12 am
“I could go on about why it was foolish to begin on day 1 with this particular subject. To do it without even testing the waters, and building up cred within that community. Why it was foolish to double-down after the other bloggers responded, generally pissing off PZ and some of the other long-standing bloggers there.”
Calling that foolish, I just disagree with that strongly;
“testing waters”…”building up cred”.
‘Hey FtB, can I say this?’
‘Hello FtB readers, here are some non-confrontational opinions that I know everyone else agrees with” or
“Hey FtB, I didn’t mean to disagree with you so I’ll stop expressing my controversial opinions”
He weighed in on an issue that was a constant topic on the network and got fired for having a difference of opinion. In my opinion, when ThunderFoot got booted he had the high-ground without a doubt in round one. He definitely didn’t cross any lines unless I missed something.
I see the email access as grayer, but as I noted earlier not scum level. He basically eavesdropped and gossiped, not quite the stuff of demons.
August 21, 2012 at 5:53 am
Let’s get a few things straight here. You don’t think it was at all foolish to pick a fight on a topic that was very near and dear to many of the other bloggers there? At the very least, it was a lapse in judgement. It’s like showing up at a new job, knowing there are a lot of, I don’t know… Dr. Who fans there, and then shitting all over Dr. Who during your first lunch break.
Also, he didn’t get fired for having a difference of opinion. He was fired for being a jerk about it. And he wasn’t booted in the first round. He was fired not after the second, not the third, but after the fourth follow-up post on the same stupid subject. Except for his very first post, it was literally all he talked about while he was there. Five entries about the same shit. It very likely could have all blown over up to that point, and he could have stayed at FtB to fight another day. But no.
The whole thing still would have blown over, although sans blog, until he snooped on the private mailing list. Gray area my ass; he had no business in there and he found nothing. Yes, a conversation about not getting paid for a job you don’t do anymore is nothing, especially when giving him the money for the month of July was one of the options they were considering. As is someone venting in private about someone they don’t like, but hadn’t actually acted upon it.
September 3, 2012 at 7:55 pm
I think it was him speaking his mind and expressing his opinion, which might be a folly in some circumstances, but I think here it was the right thing to do and basically his job description. I’m not going to agree that he was wrong to express himself.
September 20, 2012 at 12:12 pm |
Is this really the only thing that Tfoot did to go from being like a hero on the YouTube atheist community to one who is regularly hated on? He shared some e-mails from some stupid secret mailing list of some stupid clique? God damn..
I know he was already criticized before because he went against the PC police in calling out Islam for what it was. Sam Harris has dealt with the same. Living in the heart of the Muslim world though I have to agree with these guys, Western liberals have no fucking clue what they’re talking about when it comes to Islam. Harris and Mason at least hit close to the mark. If anything they should go further. Did that have something to do with it?
I also heard something about sexism… how does that factor in? I’ve never heard Tfoot say anything remotely sexist before. Did I miss something? (very very possible I did, I do not follow the lives of YouTubers or bloggers as if they are celebrities, most of the time I seriously don’t give a fuck.)
I fucking hate cliques. I hate these intellectual groups online who are obsessed with jerking each other off all the time and attacking outsiders. I’ve been involved with them before, I’ve been inside the clique before and I’ve been the outsider attacked by the clique before. And I’ve had the experience too of going from being a popular insider to being a pariah because either I a) disagreed with somebody who was a vindictive asshole who wouldn’t let things go- almost every clique has at least one of these, or b) I called out the clique for its own nauseating self-congratulatory behavior and when clique get criticized, clique get angry.
So I can sympathize with Tfoot’s remarks above about the nature of this dumb mailing list and his side of the story seems very plausible. What’s the other side? Is there another side? I skimmed the comments… seems pretty fucking ridiculous honestly if the worst thing he did was share some dumb emails written by dumb people…
September 20, 2012 at 11:17 pm |
Thunderf00t’s only ‘crime’ was to highlight the utter bullshit that has morphed into the infantile tree-fort kult that is Atheism+, as well as it’s supporters, who are forced to lie non-stop in order to justifiy it.
(As those targets inevitably include PZ Myers’ stellar ego, TF was ejected by Myers on a flimsy context after a private Soviet-style show-trial.)
In other words: TF was ejected for being a skeptic, and holding free thought & free-speech views:- the very anti-thesis of the desperately FreeefromThoughtBlogs.
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